I am holding my breath now, waiting for you to get it in the neck from the right wing friends of ours...

This is a very interesting posting. I'm guessing that the fears of giving up territory or dividing territory are partly based on the notion of a slippery slope. That is, if we give up an inch, what's to prevent our being forced later to give up a foot, a yard, or a mile. Once we've compromised on the notion of total ownership, what's to prevent our giving up on the notion of any ownership, albeit by degrees?

But if there is a natural stopping point, then the slippery slope won't be an issue, and this posting suggests that such a point exists, just beyond the most historic parts of Jerusalem.

And there is the issue of porousness. If Palestinians in East Jerusalem remain tied to Israel through typical government services (like social supports, driving licenses, etc.) that would continue to make it easier for Palestinians to enter Israel, making security a thornier prospect.

It would also continue to make Israel's image a problem, because clampdowns that are really SECURITY issues become, to the rest of the world, clampdowns that are CIVIL RIGHTS issues. If the Palestinians live on the other side of an international border, however, checkpoints are far more normal and acceptable.

There is one problem that someone will raise immediately: Look what happened to Gaza. Leaving Gaza just brought the terrorists closer in. My feeling is that you cannot rely on buffer areas forever, and, as the writer pointed out above, East Jerusalem would be no buffer. Israel is defending itself on the Gaza front, it could do the same for Jerusalem and the border with the West Bank. Along a more acceptable border (including a thickened waistlines), Israel should have checkpoints AND patrols.

This would not be an ideal solution, but what would be?

Good analysis is essential. One of the reasons that many people are pushed to "the right" on these issues (and I consider myself among them) is that we generally see concessions as being made in response to all the rotten BS we see being shoveled in the press, by the NGO's, the far Left and the Arab propagandists. We view any agreement being set under these circumstances as a response, as a ratification, of all these lies.

It is essential that anyone putting forward a solution beyond simple continuation of the status quo mess shows that they have a sensible, well thought out plan that has a long-term vision that includes security for the Jewish State and does NOT involve surrender in any form to all of "that."

Every time some fool, and worse yet, someone who purports to be on Israel's side, repeats one of the lies (like the "horrors of occupation," or the wall, or that Israel is an Apartheid state) they push a real negotiated solution further away, because they push those of us who know their words are lies (and we are the majority) into a more intransigent position. They don't speak for the rest of us.

BTW, while the above may involve Israeli concessions in one form or another, there's actually nothing in it that doesn't say that there won't be some sort of commensurate population exchange involving the PA or "Israeli Arabs." This is not a one-way deal. The time is coming, or should be, when people who call themselves Palestinians but carry Israeli passports and consider themselves Arabs or Muslims first, with "Israeli" coming in a distant 2nd or 3rd will have a decision to make or will have it made for them.

It's essential also that anyone who makes any deals is seen at home as someone who isn't simply being compliant as a first step with more concessions to come. This is why it's so dangerous to have a weakling like Olmert in place at this point in history. No one believes he's strong enough to hold the line on anything further.

I don't see it as my place to write treaty terms. I look at the big picture, mock bad analysis, degrade as best I can those in the press, the NGOs and the propagandists who have far top much voice in the world...but when all the facts are collected and it comes time to make plans and set policy, those plans and policies are likely to be far more interesting and nuanced than "all or nothing" might imply.

I just hope whoever's doing the deciding does the right, not the expedient, thing.

While I was writing my comment, it occurred to me that any giving up of East Jerusalem and/or the West Bank should never be seen by the Arabs as a sign of Israeli weakness, as happened with Israel's leaving southern Lebanon and Gaza. If that were the case, the Arabs would surely feel motivated to press on with more attacks.

The problem is, how do you manage to avoid that? Even if Israel negotiates from strength, it's possible that Arab opinionmakers will see it as weakness, or will choose to present it as weakness to the Arab public. You cannot not make some kind of deal, but how do you cut a deal and avoid this problem?

That's why it can't be one-sided. The Arabs must give something up that they came to the table insisting they wouldn't. I doubt it's going to happen.

Frankly, Hamas and Fatah have so hyped up the Palestinian population on maximalist rhetoric (i.e., "from the river to the sea..."), that, even if they wanted to, they couldn't get away with making any kind of deal. They've boxed themselves in.

This post mis-characterizes the expansion of Jerusalem - and the pattern of interaction. The city is not nearly as divided as the writer implies.

And it's hard to avoid the poster's attempt to use an air of inevitability to promote leftie notions and solutions- Israel is already an apartheid state, so we might as well divide our capital. And this is the "only viable solution".

Hmmmmm. Where have I heard THAT before?

The expansion of Jerusalem has been driven by two intertwined factors:

1) The increasing Jewish population of Israel has fueled creation of new neighborhoods, while

2) Continued talk about dividing/internationalizing Jerusalem has led Israeli governments to plan new suburban development to preclude the division of the city.

This also fed off of historical concerns for the Jewish holy sites in Bethlehem, and for the Gush Etzion area.

So Jerusalem's city planners have created a ring of outlying neighborhoods (such as Ma'aleh Adumim, Talbieh, Ramot, and Har Homah) that enclose smaller Arab enclaves while creating a corridor between Bethlehem/Gush Eztion and Jerusalem.

Do these developments include more Arabs in the Jerusalem municipality? Perhaps. But these numbers are balanced - and ultimately dwarfed - by the number of Jews in the new neighborhoods.

And those Jews regularly commute from their homes to other areas of Jerusalem - repeatedly crossing the "de facto barriers" that the orginal poster attempted to conjure up.

Palestinian - and by extension, Arab Jerusalemite - mobility is restricted only because of the potential for violence.

So: the construction of an indivisible Jewish city of Jerusalem is well under way. The "only viable solution" is less viable - and Jerusalem less divided - than ever before. It's likely that the next Likud government will end these "inevitable" solutions with the stroke of a pen - by finally annexing Ma'aleh Adumim and authorizing the last few corridors of development between it and the Old city.

... and maybe the solution is not to divide Jerusalem, but to offer those comfy Jerusalem Arabs the option of voting for Hamas - with their feet?

Mr. Ben David prefers using slogans instead of simply observing reality. First he smears the write without having any idea about who the writer is and what does he thinks about the allegation of Israel as an apartheid state – to me it seems the writer is not one of those people he is concerned first and for most about security.

Next, Mr Ben David keep repeating the "indivisible" and "united" mantras – ignoring the simple fact that almost no Jew from west Jerusalem goes into Arab areas of town (except in the old city which is under heavy security) - There is an invisible line in Jerusalem – the police knows it all too well: As soon as is a security alert police set up road blocks on all the roads leading intro the west part of the city – by sheer coincidence these checkpoints are set exactly on the green-line – like in the entrance to Mea-Shearim just 300 meters from where the old east-west Mandelbaum crossing use to be until 1967….

It is true that some areas of east Jerusalem – such as Talpyout east, Gilo, Har Homa, French hill as well as Mt Scopus and parts of the Mt of Olives – could be attached to west Jerusalem and remain Jewish Israeli – this is in essence the Clinton criteria: Jewish areas to Israel and Arab areas to Palestine.

Already today, there are Palestinians who find east Jerusalem too crowded (no wonder tens of thousands moved into the city to get Israeli ID – among them many who for years lived in the west bank and kept their "Jerusalem Resident" status by keeping a fake address in Jerusalem – it was the building of the wall that caused them to move into the town itself – fearing that the wall will cause their fake address to be exposed when they cross it daily from Ramallah to work inside Israel.

The overcrowding of east Jerusalem have caused a rise in rent prices and many Palestinians find it cheaper to rent in those areas on the seam zone between East and west (such as French Hill) or in those areas who are far into the west bank (but still called "Jerusalem) – areas such as Pisgat Ze'ev – in a sense they are Palestinian "Settlers' who set demographic facts on the ground and we already know who is going to win in this race – especially since East Jerusalemites Palestinians are so wealthy compare to other west bank resident that they can afford a 2nd sometimes 3rd wife….

So bend avid can dream Likud dreams about more annexation not understanding that Israel is hurting itself by not defining a border for itself.

The security risk (Hamas take over) are indeed real and just like in gaza, as in the north, Israel should review how to restore it's ability to conduct war in order to defend it's citizens. The ear of crating "Buffer Zones" and later filling hose with more settlers has ended. Rockets can fly over "buffer zones" even large distance. So far the hundreds of suicide bombers smuggled into Israel in cars with Israeli yellow license plate owned and operated by a Palestinians with an Israeli ID (east Jerusalemite or "Israeli Arab") have caused by far more damage than the Qassam and the Hizbulla rockets put together multiplied by ten……

PS If you read Hebrew take a look at this:

http://www.phr.org.il/phr/files/articlefile_1186998887437.doc

It is a petition by Palestinians - east Jerusalem residents who change their residency into Israel itself and they now want to keep their status as "Jerusalem residents" just live inside Israel itself. Nice .

#8 - If you re-read Ben-David's post carefully, I don't believe you will find any "smear" in it. He is critical of the writer's views, yes, and he explains why. We don't know who the writer is because the writer has chosen to remain completely anonymous. Why? And why do you assume the writer is a "he?" Perhaps you know who "he" is? You seem to share an identical perspective on this issue.

Ben-David is also correct that the writer espouses a number of basic left-wing talking points. I would also point out that a number of "his" "facts" seem to be questionable. For instance, the assertion that "East Jerusalem voted overwhelmingly for Hamas in the Palestinian elections" is patently false. In the district elections, Hamas won a total of around 58,000 votes while the Fatah and the "independent" candidates won over 90,000. As is well known, almost all of the "independents" were actually Fatah as well, but split the vote because they refused to sacrifice their own aspirations to party discipline.

I would also question whether most of the terrorist attacks in 2000-2002 originated with a single East Jerusalem cell. My recollection is quite different, but I don't have the time to check it now. I'll try follow up on this later.

Y - you add nothing to the discussion (except a few typos).

I can show you mansions built near my yishuv - built by wealthy Nablus burghers who are moving westward, hoping to (a) escape the Fatah mafia, and (b) find themselves on the Israeli side of the security fence.

So?

We know this has been going on - and especially in Jerusalem - for quite some time.

Jews and Arabs are keeping to themselves all over Israel - including Jaffa, Lod, and the Galilee. Decades of intifada have shut down the open-air markets of Kalkilya, which used to be full of Jews from neighboring Kfar Saba - and the same thing has happened all over.

So?

The fact is that Jews are regularly driving through these Arab enclaves from new Jewish neighborhoods east, north, and south of old Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is different from many other places:

While near Kalkilia, near Tul Karem, north and west of Jenin there is a real security fence that has stopped suicide bombers and also stopped thousands of Palestinians from crossing into Israel on daily basis – but in Jerusalem this still goes on:

On a daily basis tens of thousands cross the holes in the wall. This is a fact and this is a result of the wall route being in a the most wrong place possible: Between Palestinians to Palestinians.

Bump. Please note that comment 9 was originally flagged as spam and I have just now approved it.

I'll restrict my answer to Lyn to facts only:

East Jerusalem has 6 seats in the Palestinian Parliment. 2 are resreved for Chrstian candidates. Hamas won all the other 4.

The 2 Chrstians rep also voted for Hamas goverment.

now for the east Jerusalem cells - here is one suich cell. many other cells were from the west bank but they had east Jerusalem drivers who took them past Israeli checkpoints using their israeli license plate cars.

Israel arrests suspects in university bombing
Some alleged cell members based in Jerusalem
August 21, 2002 Posted: 1:42 PM EDT (1742 GMT)

A July 31 bombing at Hebrew University in Jerusalem killed nine people, including five Americans.

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli police Wednesday said they had broken up a terrorist cell that they believe was responsible for eight attacks, including a bombing at Hebrew University that killed nine people, five of them Americans.

Five people from East Jerusalem were arrested Saturday and another 10 were picked up during the past several days in the West Bank city of Ramallah, Israeli sources said.

Members of the group had confessed to carrying out eight attacks that killed 35 people, police said. They said they got their orders from Ramallah-based leaders of the radical Palestinian group

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3083757,00.html

4 terrorists to lose Israeli ID cards

Interior Minister Pines-Paz decides to strip east Jerusalem residents of their permenant residency rights due to involvement in series of terror attacks; terrorists refused to express regret for their actions

JERUSALEM - Four east Jerusalem residents convicted of involvement in a series of terror attacks would be stripped of their permanent residence status in Israel, Interior Minister Ophir Pines-Paz announced on Tuesday.

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel will revoke Jerusalem residency rights for Hamas lawmakers in response to a Tel Aviv suicide bombing that killed nine people, an Israeli government spokesman said Tuesday.

..... so Y must reach back to news reports from 2002 and 2005 to find Jerusalem-based terrorists.

Which proves.... what?

All along the security fence, the IDF is stopping dozens of infiltration attempts each month from REAL hotbeds of terrorism - Kalkilya, Nablus, Hebron, and to a lesser extent Ramallah.

The Arabs who crowd into Jerusalem largely do so to ESCAPE the Palestinian authority. They WANT to be annexed by Israel.

So the vast majority of them don't jeapordize that by fomenting violence.

When was the last time a bus blew up in Jerusalem? When was the last time Jewish cars were pelted with stones/molotov cocktails?

Thank G-d it's been quite a while. If there were a solid base of terrorist sympathy in Jerusalem, there would be many more such incidents.

Jerusalem has never been - and never will be - more at peace than when it is united under Israeli rule.

It proves that when Hamas wants it can use East Jerusalemites to travel freely across all so-called "gates" in the security barrier.

It is well known to security services that all suicide bombings in the last two years (which were not Hamas - they were PIJ cell in Northern West bank) had firts traveled south to Jerusalem, crossed into Israel there and continue to Tel-Aviv, Netanya and where ever they choose to explode.

The Jerusalem wall/barrier is routed in a way that tens of thousands of Palestinians cros it every day. You can either create lines that will take hours or you can have lax security - you can not have both.

What is raraly known is that the route of the wall/fence in Jerusalem is not finished. In many places it was left with holes since Israel knows closing those holes will completly disrupt Palestinian towns which this wall/barrier cross in the middle.

Which of these vilages do you Ben David consider part of "united Jerusalem":

Kfar Akeb (a suburb of Ramallah adjcunt to Kalandia Refugee camp)

Vilage of Shu'afat (on the "west" side of the barrier/wall)

Shu'afat RC (refugee camp) adjust to Shu'afat vilage but on the EAST side of the barrier

Beit-Hanina (on the west side of the barrier)

A-Ram (on the east side)

Dhayat al Barid district of Beit-Hania ((on the east side adjcunt to A-Ram)

A-Ram and Beit hanina shared a main road - today the wall runs ON this road....... left side of the street is in Israel and right side (behind the wall) is in the west bank

Abu Dis (85% of the vilage is on the east side of the wall , 15% on the west side)

Shwarchre, Jabel Mukaber, Shike Saed - can you guess which 2 out of 3 vilages are part of "United Jerusalem" and which are not....

Y - you're missing the point. The votes for Hamas were confined to the four candidates they put up. The votes for Fatah were spread over 17 candidates, including the Christian seats, and were diluted due to personal loyalties, among other reasons. Fact is: Fatah candidates got almost twice as many votes as Hamas candidates did in East Jerusalem. That is not an overwhelming vote for Hamas, any way you cut it.

For the record: two (and only two) major (in your own terms "more horrific") terrorist attacks between 2000-2002 were attributed to a single East Jerusalem Hamas cell (Cafe Moment and the Hebrew U cafeteria). (The double suicide bombing at the Ben Yehuda mall was attributed to cells in Ramallah and Bethlehem along with a cell in Abu Dis but I've found no connection between that one and the Moment/Hebrew U attacks.)

The Hamas cell deemed responsible for the Dophinarium attack was based in Qalquilya. The Sbarro bomber and his "guide" came from Ramallah in a taxi. The Park Hotel attack was attributed to cells in Nablus and Tulkarm and the Matza restaurant in Haifa to one in Jenin. The Patt Junction bomber allegedly traveled from Nablus to Bethlehem and from there to Beit Safafa. There's no mention of a Jerusalem cell involved that I can find. In addition, there were several suicide bombings orchestrated by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs and Islamic Jihad (e.g., French Hill, Meggido Junction and Mahane Yehuda). I could go on, but I think that's enough to establish that "most" of the horrific suicide bombings during this time weren't perpetrated by any one cell. And all of these attacks pre-dated the construction of the fence, so it could have played no part in either enabling or disabling them.

In other words, the facts don't support your assumptions.

Lynn B,

I have met many people who tried to convince me that "Palestinians don't really support Hamas" but guess what – hamas still won – big time. I know many east Jerusalemites – all I need is to look at how their daughters dress (Hijab, head scarf) to know what they voted. The fact is that Extreme Islamic agenda is growing both in East Jerusalem and in Israel. In fact it is growing more extreme in places where economic situation is better.

You can try and "explain" the Palestinian vote in many ways (Fatah did this, Fatah did that) the fact is Hamas won.

As for the cell – I provided you the info. The cell was responsible for several attacks on trains, on Gas depot etc…luckily those attacks were faulty or discovered on time but others did not. All together a single cell was responsible for 35 death and hundreds of wounded. Since that time several other east Jerusalem cells were responsible for transporting suicide bombers (via Jerusalem) into Israel. Thankfully 9 out of 10 are stopped on the way (sometimes on the Road from Jerusalem to Tel-Aviv)

I just don't understand why you argue so much about a simple fact: Jerusalem has hundreds of thousands of people who hold Israeli ID – they hate Israel – even if they did not vote Hamas and some of them help transport most of the suicide bombers in the last 5 years because via Jerusalem it is so easy to do so.

Y - I argue because you're making statements that are demonstrably incorrect in order to prove your point and then trying to change the subject. No one said that Hamas didn't win the election. But Hamas didn't win the election because they won more votes. They won it because they conducted themselves in a manner that allowed them to exploit the votes they got. Fatah didn't.

Moreover, the info you provided does not show that "it was a single East-Jerusalem cell that during 2000-2002 did most of the more horrific suicide bombings in Israel." And 35 deaths and hundreds of wounded is not "most" of a few hundred deaths and thousands wounded. The fact that the greater Jerusalem municipality has hundreds of thousands of Arabs who hold Israeli ID, many (but certainly not all) of whom hate Israel, is indisputable. But that doesn't mean that Jerusalem would be safer or more secure if Israel were to re-divide the city. Been there and done that.

Anyway, as others have noted, you (or the "Israeli reader") make some interesting points and it would be easier to focus on their substance if you (or he) didn't try to back them up with misinformation.

Lynn,

Do you understand that all suicide bombers now come into israel via Jerusalem or not ?

Do you understand that Hamas for two years choose to send bombers but if they do they would have a great infrastructure among east Jerusalemites?

Do you understand that the wall route in Jerusalem is 3 years late ?

Do you understand that Government of Israel left several holes in that wall since it knows that if the wall will be finished life of Palestinians will be impossible?

Do you understand that it takes 12-45 seconds to climb the wall ?

If you understand that - why is it so hard to understand that for the security of the people of israel there must a choice between:

So called "united Jerusalem" (with all the arab villages that until 1967 were not part of J-Lem

or

a safe Jerusalem.

Correction:

Hamas for 2 years choose NOT to send bombers

anyhow I am not going to continue this discussion. If you can not for yourself what goes on in "united Jerusalem" I will sure not be the one that open your eyes to erality. Instead of the web go look around in e. Jerusalem (outside the old city)

I live in Jerusalem --east of the 1949-1967 armistice line. Another 200,000 to 250,000 Israelis live within the Jerusalem city boundaries east of the armistice line along with me.

The original post starting this discussion by an "Israeli reader" is very simplistic. We are terrified about Olmert's plans for us, which seem to be the plans of hayim ramon. Both ramon and olmert are among Israel's most unsavory politicians. Both belong in jail. Olmert may find himself there soon, God willing.

The reason we have had so much terrorism over the past 14 years --that is, since Oslo-- is Oslo, the wretched Oslo accords that allowed terrorist groups to set up headquarters within the country. Then, oslo also encouraged the Arabs generally and the Arab terrorists in particular. The Peres-Rabin-Beilin regime increased harassment of loyal Jewish citizens of Israel while allowing Arab terrorists to get away with murder. By the way, this included allowing the PLO/PA to kidnap Arabs who were Israeli citizens and imprison them and murder them for various offenses to the PA, such as selling real estate to Jews.

Oslo also encouraged the Muslim extremists among Israeli Arab citizens and they have become much more hostile to the state of Israel since Oslo. Now, dividing Jerusalem will not solve the problem of the hostile Arab-Muslim fifth column inside the 1949-1967 armistice lines of Israel. It will only encourage them, as we have seen how these things work from our experience.

Between the 1949 armistice with Transjordan [later Jordan] and June 1967, Arab troops shot into the Israeli held parts of Jerusalem and killed a fair number of civilians while doing so. A redivision of the city will only restore the 1949-1967 situation. By the way, Arab Legion troops stationed on the walls of the Old City shot into Jewish neighborhoods, and that while the Arab Legion had mostly Britishers as its top officers. Of course, now the terrorists are armed with rockets and mortars. My house could very well be a target for Arab terrorists shooting from the next hill. There's no reason why ALL of Jerusalem would not and could not become another Sderot.

The reasoning of the original post typifies the stupidity of the middle-browed, middle-brained Israeli peacemonger. He probably thought ---as we were promised in the early 1990s-- that our getting out of Gaza would mean that we would be getting Gaza out of Tel Aviv. It didn't work out that way. After the palestinian authority was set up, more terrorists from Gaza came to Tel Aviv and elsewhere in the country and more victims were produced --by the "peace process" of course. By the logic of the "Israeli reader", Arabs would have to be excluded from crossing the frontier between the palestinian authority and Little Israel at any and every point, not only in Jerusalem. And that too would bring all sorts of international complaints and pressures and accusations of apartheid, etc.

The root cause of the increased terrorism since Oslo is Oslo itself. It should be rolled back. I'm aware that a military operation to do that could be costly and would be opposed by the ever hypocritical "international community." But why make the situation worse??

Let's face it. Israel can't have peace with the Arabs not only because of Arab bigotry and narrowmindedness and religious fanaticism. Those factors are indeed at work. But the Arabs are enabled to attack us because the major Western powers feed them with money [about 1/2 billion euros to the palesinian authority every year from the EU, not to mention the US, Japan, rich Arab states, etc.] and with diplomatic support, etc. Western hostility too is only encouraged the more that Israel gives in to them. So dividing Jerusalem is a bad bad idea in many many ways.

Eliyhu,

I agree with you about Oslo but the deed is done and we have new reality we are faced with. I also agree with you that " dividing Jerusalem will not solve the problem of the hostile Arab-Muslim fifth column inside the 1949-1967 armistice lines of Israel. It will only encourage them, as we have seen how these things work from our experience. "
But what is your solution ?

To continue occupation over a growing number of Palestinians ?

To come up with fake research showing "there is no demographic threat" ?

I am very concerned about Israel long term survival and about it's security and this is why I see no other solution but to recognize the reality of divided Jerusalem. If the east part of Jerusalem will become a hotbed for shooting attacks on west Jerusalem we will have to concur it again and this time be smarter about what to do with the civilian population which allow it's homes to be used as terror bases against Israel.

Y, do I understand that all suicide bombers now come into israel via Jerusalem or not ? Not. I believe I've established that they do not. Certainly, I've established that they did not between 2000 and 2002, as you claimed. As far as I know, there are no suicide bombers in Israel "now." Attempts have been intercepted in the past months, many nowhere near Jerusalem. In fact, I think you'll find that most of them infiltrated or attempted to infiltrate through Gaza.

I agree. This exchange is going nowhere. I can see that you're sincere and passionate in your belief that the division of Jerusalem would be good for the State of Israel. I vehemently disagree and you've said nothing to persuade me otherwise. Eliyahu has made a number of excellent points, among them that many of your arguments sound similar to those that were made in support of the "disengagement." We need to learn from our mistakes, not repeat them.

Lynn,

there are attempts and there were several suicide bombers that did a Netanya bombing, a Tel-aviv bombing - luckily there are only few the last one being almost a year back.

It was established by the Shabak that all of them came via Jerusalem.

I feel kind silly arguing with you about facts. You need to know the facts not try to "establish" facts on a comment board.