There are no jews in the arab states because all jewsh people in the arab countries went to Israel for religious porpuses. (Israel paid them and gave them passports)

My father tells me that there where many jews in his village(Yemen) but they disappeared quicklu in the 1940s (he believes they went to Israel)

So Iam sure your data is right but there is a reason behined that which I mentioned above.

"There are no jews in the arab states because all jewsh people in the arab countries went to Israel for religious porpuses. (Israel paid them and gave them passports)"

For ignorance, naivete and willful self-deception, this ridiculous excuse takes first place.

Arabian19 should try to get something resembling a real education in the annuls of history. He can start here, not that I'm holding out any expectation:

http://www.meforum.org/article/263

my friend nova, i will read what is written in the site. and god forgive you for the things you say about me.

anyways I just wondering how this chart was written when there are no jews in the arab world!!!

"anyways I just wondering how this chart was written when there are no jews in the arab world!!"

You know what the definition of chutzpa is?

"A boy, having just been convicted of murdering his parents, begs the judge for leniency because he is an orphan."

That about sums up the rationale in your comment.

It also reminds me of a joke I once heard: My German brother in law complains that you can't get a decent bagel in all of Germany. So I say to him: And the reason for that is....?

Try at least to get people's names right. Though I wouldn't mind being Nova instead of only Noga.

You want to emphasis the fact that jews where not treated well in the arab countries and thats way they left??

anyways, i wont debate on that area,
but once again

My question was
how can there be a chart like that when there are no jews in arab countries nowadays??????

how can you make a contrast between an existing element and a non existing element???
scientifically its not possible.
there is no benchmark between the two categories of contrast

Its like contrasting Red Indians rights in France Vs Red Indians rights in America

arabian19:

It is indeed possible to compare Israel with various Arab countries in this regard. You might claim, for example, that "Saudi Arabia has no Jews, but if she did, she'd let them serve in the government"... but that would be an empty claim. Saudi Arabia's intolerance for religions other than Islam is well known; it's pretty easy to predict how a Saudi Jewish population would be treated today, if there were one.

(How is Saudi Arabia intolerant, you might ask? Try to visit with a Hebrew Bible in your hand and a Star of David around your neck, and you'll find out.)

And yes, the history of Jews of Arab nations, post-1948, is also well documented. Jews who had nothing to do with Israel had property confiscated, jobs taken away, and many were eventually expelled bodily -- from Iraq, from Egypt, from Libya, and many other countries. Israel absorbed them because they had nowhere else to go.

(It is not true, as you claim, that Israel "paid" them to come. In the early 1950s, Jewish emigration from Arab countries doubled Israel's population. Israel could not afford to subsidize even a small fraction of that; it was all Israel could do to house them in squallid tent cities and encourage them to lift themselves out of poverty. They did. Israel's current President was born in Iran, and previous political leaders have come from Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, and so forth.)

Or, if you prefer, have a look at an Arab country that does still have a Jewish population -- who, in fact, are not permitted to leave the country even if they want to. I'm referring to Syria. How many Syrian Jews are members of parliament these days?

- - -

In closing -- let me point out that I have no quarrel with the way Arab nations conduct their own internal affairs these days. That's for citizens to discuss with their own leaders. If they like the political systems they have, fine; if they want to change things, I wish them luck; and if they want help, they can ask for it.

But we do get tired of hearing Israel being called an Apartheid state, and being accused of ethnic cleansing... particularly when the accusations come largely from countries that are guilty of ethnic cleansing!

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline

Daniel: Israel's present president is Shimon Peress. I believe he was born in Poland. His predecessor was Katzav, whom you are thinking about, who left under a cloud of much disgrace. However, the gist of your argument is correct. The Jews who were expelled or fled from the Arab countries have been fully integrated into society a long time ago.

BTW, there is a tiny Jewish minority in Lebanon.

"In the mid-1980’’s, Hizballah kidnapped several prominent Jews from Beirut — most were leaders of what remained of the country’s tiny Jewish community. Four of the Jews were later found murdered.

Nearly all of the remaining Jews are in Beirut, where there is a committee that represents the community.2 Because of the current political situation, Jews are unable to openly practice Judaism. In 2004, only 1 out of 5,000 Lebanese Jewish citizens registered to vote participated in the municipal elections. Virtually all of those registered have died or fled the country. The lone Jewish voter said that most of the community consists of old women."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/lebjews.html

And in Morocco, where they have a relativelty comfortable life. The Morrocan king, I was told, has a Jewish advisor. A Jihadist attempt to bomb a Jewish community centre a few years ago was met with public fury. So, not all Arab countries are of the same colour.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html

This reminds me of what I was told when I was traveling in Morocco last year. I was told that the Jews were doing fine in Morocco, but then they got a letter from the Israeli government saying that they should move to Israel...and so they...uh...just left.

Yup. Just like that. No word about anti-Jewish riots going on in Morocco, especially in the mid-1950s. Nope, they got this letter, you see.

How can people believe this crap!

Daniel in Brookline

You say that if jews went to Saudia Arabia.
I am not going to talk about "if" subjects. no matter what you say, its not real facts.

yes saudia arabia is an islamic country, and its whole population is muslim, so way do you say "if" there are jews.

this thing is irritating

If jews want to go to saudia arabia and live "in deserts and ride camels, as most americans stereotype us, then your welcome to Saudia arabia, but dont come with an Israel passport, come with another passport.
because till now arab countries didnt finalize the peace process.
Its not a religous matter
Its political stuff that doesnt alow "Israelies " to enter
jews are welcomed in all countries, and there are forign jews working actually, but not isrealeis

on the other hand, when you say jews had their homes confiscated and etc...,
in my point of view those days all people where poor, even muslims and arabs. you can say they fleed for better life,
but dont say arabs didnt respect jews, we know jews pray for god, unlike jews in Europe where the had hard times.

Israel was ment to be home for jews, thats why the went to Israel. Its as you said the Only place the would accept them.

Maybe you know that they lived in arab countries for thousands of years, and jews where famouse for trade especially jewelery and silver works.
But the problem with them was that they didnt socialize alot with other people and tribes, thats due to thier religon speciallity and their unique religious laws. It was their decision not to socialize alot.

Regarding Syria and jews not being aloud to leave, I dont no the story or reason for that. But I wish jews living in syria the best, and I dont think syrians are having a better life than jews in syria
An

to finalize this issue,

Jumping from an issue to another issue will not serve the cause. I believe that rather than speaking of what"if there are jews" in arab countries, you should focus on what happend to jews in Germany and Russia and other parts of the world,

Joanne
I believe what israel did to arabs made some people angry on jews and those riots as you say are the "re action" side of the equation.

"I believe that rather than speaking of what"if there are jews" in arab countries, you should focus on what happend to jews in Germany and Russia and other parts of the world,"

Didn't you just state that "Jumping from an issue to another issue will not serve the cause"? Aren't you changing the subject? Why?

Arabian19,

Granted, the Jews were better off in the Muslim world than the Christian...during the Middle Ages. But that's not saying much.

As for the Jews being well-known for making jewelry, well, the Jews were well-known for certain trades in Europe, too. So bloody what? That didn't prevent them from being second-class citizens.

Arabs seem to be in total denial of what it meant to be "dhimmis" in their society all those centuries. There were massacres now and then, though things were calm when Jews (and, to a lesser extent, Christians) knew their place, when they didn't get uppity. Hell, even some individual Jews made it into government. But the group as a whole had to know its subservient place.

Dhimmis were supposed to be "protected." Protected from what? That was a euphemism for second-class status. Consider some of the rules that applied to dhimmi, who presented no threat to Muslim society whatsoever:

* dhimmi people had to cede the center of the road to Muslims;
* the only animal they could ride was a donkey;
* they could not testify against a Muslim in court;
* they could not build houses taller than those of Muslims;
* they could not build new places of worship;
* they had to pray quietly so as not to offend the ears of passing Muslims;
* a dhimmi man could not so much as touch a Muslim woman but a Muslim man could take Jewish or Christian women as wives;
* a dhimmi could not defend himself if physically assaulted by a Muslim;
* dhimmis could not bear arms;
* dhimmis had to pay a special tax every year and were treated in humiliating fashion when paying it;
* in public, dhimmis had to wear distinctive clothing, intentionally designed to be humiliating;
* at least in the 9th century, dhimmis had to nail wooden images of devils to their doors.

[Note: The source for this is http://oyster.journalspace.com/?entryid=554, but you can find the same points in lots of places]

In some places, including Iran, Jews were not allowed to go out in the rain, because the water running off the Jews might pollute a nearby Muslim.

Some Jews did have good jobs, but many held the lowest jobs, those shunned by Muslims, like tanning, for instance. OK, Bernard Lewis said that even second-class citizens are citizens of a sort, better than what the Jews were in Europe before modern times...but that's all.

And if Jews were doing so great, why does do
Arab cities have their mellahs, their Jewish ghettos?

Those riots in Morocco came long after the establishment of Israel, by the way. They drew on nationalist feelings as Moroccans were fighting for independence.

Every majority seems to tend to overestimate the happiness of minorities in their midst. I see that with Israelis vis-a-vis their own minorities. Yes, they have lots of rights in Israel, more than they enjoy in Arab countries, yet I can fully understand their ambivalent feelings about Israeli citizenship. Yes, the Jews had it great, sort of, in Western Europe, but that was due to tolerance and at the price of dilution of their identity, not to general acceptance. I've even heard of cases where white Southerners in the USA would say that the North misunderstood the South, that the blacks were a lot happier and better off than was made out to be the case.

I'm sorry, but when I hear how great the Jews had it under Islam, I think of one word..."dhimmi," and that says it all.

It's not for nothing that Arabs use the expression "he's only a Jew" or "they're only Jews" or the old saying that "the Jews are the least numerous and the least among men."

dihmmi or what is in arabic "اهل الذمه"
they are people of the book.

anyways most of the information you have is not true,
yes they had to pay jezziah for the protection they had, its not for the threat or whetever reason the site makes up.Moreover also muslims pay the same thing but refared as .... "zakah". All the money was kept in bayt al mal and used for improving many aaspects of the islamic community which dhimmis are whithin it.

that was in the time of the islamic state, but know its not compulsary to pay anything.

anyways I dont see anykind of information that can put muslims under categories "not" traeting miniorities well. at least they had theyr trade and homes and most importantly safety.

regarding what you say about millahs, I truley dont have an Idea about this consept, but its clearly not in the middle east, it may be in morroco or some parts of africa.

I didnt want to mention religous things in this thread but because of what you mentioned about dihmmes ill out some versus of koran that you wiil find all around the world .

You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. (Surat al-Ma'ida, 82)

Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, "We believe in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him." (Qur'an, 29:46)

Among the People of the Book there are some who believe in God and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before God. They do not sell God's signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And God is swift at reckoning. (Qur'an, 3:199)

... There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite God's signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. God knows those who guard against evil. (Qur'an, 3:113-115)

Those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabaeans and the Christians, all who believe in God and the Last Day and act rightly will feel no fear and will know no sorrow. (Qur'an, 5:69)

…if God had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. God will certainly help those who help Him - God is All-Strong, Almighty. (Surat al-Hajj: 40 )

O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God. (Surat Al 'Imran, 64)

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. (Qur'an, 60:8)

arabian19:

I am very glad that you can quote the many passages of the Qu'ran that speak of justice, and of dealing honorably with the People of the Book. Please do remember them!

However, there are other passages of the Qu'ran that say other things. For example: "You will indeed fight against the Jews and you will kill them to the point where the rock and the tree will say: ‘O Muslim! O ‘Abdullaah (slave of Allaah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.’ Except for al-Gharqad for it is from the trees of the Jews."

And it isn't even my point that the Qu'ran says such things. My point is that people today use passages such as this for guidance.

And yes, as a Jew, I take such passages personally -- and when people speak of such passages with reverence, I take them very seriously.

- - - -

By the way: on the subject of Jews ejected from Arab countries, you might find this interesting.

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline

Daniel in Brookline

the whole thread went to another direction

anyways, I was qouting some phrases of the quran realting to how muslims treat dhimmies

those phrses where after the creation of the islamic country in madina.

the phrase you posted is clear and youll find it in the quran. but you negelcated the fact that it doesnt mean killing a jew in an islamic country, it talks about war time, between two armies.
when or where this war will happen its not clear, but there will be one for sure.

however, you cant hold that phrase of the quran against me, because we where talking about howjews are treeated nowadays in arab countries, then someone here redirected the thread to how jews "where" treated.

and Know yuo qouate a phrease talking about "war time"

anyways I asure you that all miniorities are respected in the "Islamic country"
and that the phrase you qouted is way out of the subject

I am sorry I am not an Islamic scholar but the table in this thread is not scientific and biased, whith my great respect for this blog that I visit from a long time.

arabian19:

I'll answer, if I may, by quoting your recent words:

the whole thread went to another direction

You were the one who brought up quotations from the Qu'ran. I wanted to point out that, if you want to treat Jews well, there are surwahs to support you... and if you want an excuse to kill Jews, there are surwahs to support that too.

the phrase you posted is clear and youll find it in the quran. but you negelcated the fact that it doesnt mean killing a jew in an islamic country, it talks about war time, between two armies.

As I tried to point out, that quotation is used today to incite hatred and terrorism against Jews. I doubt the "wartime" part causes any problems; as I understand it, Muslims who consider it their duty to kill Jews say that we are already at war. (And if we were not, jihad excuses nearly everything.)

when or where this war will happen its not clear, but there will be one for sure.

There have been several -- 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 1991, 2006, with minor skirmishes too numerous to count.

however, you cant hold that phrase of the quran against me, because we where talking about howjews are treeated nowadays in arab countries, then someone here redirected the thread to how jews "where" treated.

Granted, that passage is not directly relevant to how Jews are treated in Arab countries today... unless it is used to arouse violence within an Arab country against that country's own Jewish population. (That may well have happened lately, but I'm not aware of it.)

However, if you want to use Qu'ranic passages to demonstrate how well Jews are treated, then I can use Qu'ranic passages that contradict yours. Fair is fair.

And, as I said, the importance of the passage I quoted is that people use it today as an excuse to commit violence and murder.

I am sorry I am not an Islamic scholar but the table in this thread is not scientific and biased, whith my great respect for this blog that I visit from a long time.

I'm not an Islamic scholar either (nor a scholar of Judaism either, actually).

No, the table is not scientific; I don't believe anyone said that it was. It is intended to illustrate how Israel treats her minorities... as compared to the way some of her neighbors do.

You claim that it's not a fair comparison, comparing Israel (with its minority Muslim population) to Arab countries that have no Jewish populations. If I stipulate that, we can ignore five or so items from the table... but that still leaves nine. And if you compare Israel, not to an unnamed "Arab country" but to the Palestinian Authority, I believe you'll find that all fourteen are valid. (Have Palestinians been murdered by their own people for selling property to Jews? Yes, they have. And so on.)

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline