Tuesday, February 12, 2008
Here's a lengthy and interesting article on the genetic history of the Jews (and others): Genetics and the Jewish identity
...More studies have been carried out on the genetic history of the Jews than on most ethnic groups, perhaps because there are so many Jewish doctors to take advantage of the fabled willingness of Jews to participate in research. These studies not only show that almost all Jewish populations have origins in the Middle East, but that the DNA of Jews from almost every corner of the Diaspora is more similar to that of other Jews than to any other population. When compared with non-Jewish groups, the closest match is with the Muslims of Kurdistan, not with the European peoples alongside whom Ashkenazi Jews lived for centuries or the Arab neighbors of many Sephardi populations.
Other groups with histories of ancient migrations do not have the same degree of continuity. Hungarians are known to have originated on the Eurasian steppe and moved westward in a migration many centuries long, arriving in the Carpathian basin about 995 CE. They speak a language from the steppe, take pride in their history of migration and military conquest and expected that genetic research would demonstrate their central Asian origins. The evidence to date, however, has shown a varying but quite small element of central Asian ancestry in Hungarian populations, along with great similarities between Hungarians and their Slavic and German neighbors. This does not mean that the Hungarians with Slavic ancestry are not real Hungarians. Rather, Hungarian culture has been so powerfully attractive that for many centuries people of Slavic, Germanic and other ancestry elected to join the Hungarian people. Ironically, the genetic distinctiveness of the Jews in part may reflect the unattractiveness of joining a religious minority that was oppressed and impoverished through much of its history...
Of course, such things are interesting, but don't really dictate anything about politics, culture or "peoplehood" -- there is no genetic test for Israeli citizenship, for instance. But there is a renewing racist trend in antisemitic circles to dismiss Jewish identity on a genetic basis, so it's certainly good to know that in this, as in so many other things, they are wrong. As the authors themselves conclude:
What genetic data cannot tell us is who is a Jew. The answers to that question are, variously, halachic, political and cultural. On a purely technical level, there is no genetic screen that can sort Jews from non-Jews. Population differences do not translate into reliable tests of individual lineage. What genetics can tell us is something about where our ancestors came from - no more. It cannot tell us who we are. Nor can it tell us who we want to become, as individual Jews or as a Jewish people. As new data emerge from genetics laboratories, though, we are likely to learn a great deal more about the history of our people.
There is a genetic basis for the Jewish people, but that doesn't mean a "pure" genetic basis. The point is that there is a good deal of genetic *continuity* rather than any purity. Anyone can see that the Jews have had input from many other groups over the centuries (and are better off for it) just by looking at Jews from different countries. It's fascinating, however, to see a Russian Jew and Moroccan Jew looking so different from each other, yet having many of the same Y- and X-chromosome tracers linking them back to the same Levantine Jewish ancestors.
No nation is totally pure. Those that are nearly so (Japanese, Icelanders) owe their lack of in-mixing to centuries of isolation. So a lack of genetic purity doesn't mean a lack of national...or even ethnic...identity.
Actually, I've heard it said that Israeli Jews are exceptionally good-looking (as opposed to European or American Jews) because Jews from different parts of the world are marrying each other in Israel. Here's what I read on the subject at www.roadjunky.com/guide/399/a-guide-to-the-israelis-rude-smart-and-kind
"The first thing you notice about Israelis is that they come from everywhere. The big aliyah or migration of Jews to Israel happened back in the 50’s after no one wanted to live in Europe any more. Yet many came from places like Morocco, Yemen and Iran, so the resulting inter-marriages have left the present generation of Israelis with just about every physical complexion and aspect imaginable. It’s also made them a stunningly good-looking race with Spanish eyes mixing with Polish cheekbones and Arabic tanned skin.
"Add to the equation that around a million Russian Jews turned up after the fall of the Iron Curtain and that a whole bunch of Ethiopians were declared to be Jewish and the racial spectrum is almost complete. The government couldn’t quite bring itself to declare the Thais or Filipinos to be Jewish but they were imported anyway to do all the jobs that Israelis don’t want to do."
Who knows? If those Thais and Filipinos stay there long enough, maybe they'll be added to the mix, too.
Why do European Jews often do look like other Europeans? I read that, after the dispersion, at least in Europe, newly arrived Jewish communities would take wives from the surrounding populations for awhile, but then that would stop. After that, the intermarriage rate would only be .5% per generation. A small amount, to be sure. But, along with the episodes of great, great-grandmothers being raped by a Cossacks, apparently that was enough.
One is for certain, though, the Jews are not really Khazars. Arthur Koestler wrote a tome on the subject, and it was a favorite debating point of anti-Zionists, showing that the Jews really didn't belong in Palestine. I understand that this theory has been successfully debunked.
Regarding the unattractiveness of some groups: I think this is a valid point when it comes to the Jews. When intermarriage did occur, especially in Europe from the 19th century onward, it was typically the Jew who was looking to leave, not anyone else looking to become a Jew. Intermarriage and conversion were the ticket to social acceptance in places like turn-of-the-century Germany and Austria. I heard that the Jewish community in Western and Central Europe absolutely hemmorhaged people at that time.
what about the Hebrwes of the biblical days. I presume they were dark skinned, as were the Egyptians dark skin people who were black and came from Ham line. Shem's line was dark skin as well. I know some people would diagree with me on that. Jese himself was a man of color not white as pictured in many biblical movies. most biblical scholars are afraid to admist this. in genetics you can go from black to white not white to black. black is a dominant gene which is proven. Noah' ark landed in mt Arat. Japeth people went north of the ark and into the caucous mountains and over time adapted to the climate by their skin getting lighter, hair texture changing,etc. that needs to be talk about once we start talking about DNA.
Who were the first jewish people. The the bible the prophets feet were black upon the sand. Christ was bronze cooper.
http://www.coppertone.com/coppertone/index.jsp
Who knew?
I thought Isaac was the first Jew
Abraham was a Hebrew. Isaac was too. Isaac begot Jacob. God renamed Jacob Israel and the Jews came from Israel's son Judah. The word Jew was at first a word used to degrade Jews. Juuuuuu
dah. In 70 CE the Roman Army killed over 90 thousand Jews in Jerusalem and sent over 1 million as slaves all over Europe. Thus we have European Jews from the two tribes from Joseph and Benjamin. Rome becaME Britain and Britain became America. Britain ruled the area after the Muslims Turks gave control to the Brits. Now the "moderate muslims are saying Jesus was a Palestinian. Now how could one Jew and not the rest be Palestianian. Muslims are again caught in treachery.
You are absolutely correct! No one wants to admit that Ethiopians, blacks, Africans , whatever you want to call us - WE are the original inhabitants of the Holy Land and YAWEH'S favored children.Yashua aka "Jesus" was taken to Egypt as a child fleeing King Herod's wrath.He was a Hebrew and fit right in w/ the Egyptians as did MOSES who as a babe was taken in as the child of the Pharoh's wife. If Moses "passed" as an Egyptian one can assume he looked just like an Egyptian since he was not found out until he revealed it himself.They wanted to kill all Hebrew boys and Pharoh's wife would not dare bring a "Hebrew "into her husbands home and risk her own safety as well.Egyptians and Hebrews were the same people, the only difference was that Egyptians worshipped "many Gods" and Hebrews worshiped "ONLY ONE"The samr thing with the Ethiopians, Ethiopia is directly below Egypt and both are in AFRICA! I don't understand white peoples obsession with the denial that Egypt was ruled , inhabited by blacks. Since Egypt and Ethiopia are so close would it not make sense that people from both countries would trade, immigrate amd inter-marry with each other??!! After all Romans came all the wat from the Mediterrainean to conquer Egypt as did many Muslim peoples; and since Egypt was such a powerful and advanced Empire I'm sure that Ethiopians visited if not only to see this fabled Empire! Egypt conquered most of Nubia anyway and Nubia included Sudan, Somalia, and Ethiopia - STOP HATING ALL YOU HATERS!!!
His name is "Yashua" and he was a brown-skinned brother with "hair like wool" aka AFRO!! White people definatley don't want to be associated with an AFRO! Not with their history of intolerance and bigotry towards "brown-shinned brothers and sisters with AFROS!!!" Is that why they hate us so much? They know who we really are, or history, legacy and as demonstated our obedience and close identification with YAWEH??
Racism is as old as man itself, those most likely enslaved people who built the pyramids were probably darker skinned than their brethren who ruled. The rulers unfortunately are lighter skinned due to centuries of conditioning themselves from labors outside or mixing with lighter skinned people further north. I theorize Hebrews evolved out of central east Africa, most likely were small bands of farming people, tightly knitted. Who were periodically enslaved by their more powerful neighbors, much like today in Sudan. Perhaps for their skin color itself or their difference in belief. As I formally said this is my theory.
I'm very much like to thank you guys on this discussion forum personly, Isrealise are people of whom God himself don't make, i mean by saying he doesn't creating them. I'm from sudan, and my country is been mention twenty times in the bible, without jewish, the Isrealise won't had existed becouse the jewish ware the same same africans(Egyptians) slave who ware been handed by God to the a white men(Assyrians) and bring africans nations under them for the purpose of the untichrist to appear sea Isaiah ch:19. Isrealise nations are mention not one, and they are the nations of the african descendents who are the black man children born from the womb of their slave mistresses not their own type of a womb in the land of which is not theirs like africa, so by that land, is their promise land, and by the womb they are born, is their skin coplexion colour. So the nations of Isrealise is established long a go of which are the united state of america and the brazil plus twenty three more in the caribean islands and the pecific island. So egyptian mean black people in camet language people of sudan are jewish.
the Jews come from morden day irak so thay could non be afros dark skin yes but asian like the people from India or pakistan
Offcourse there is a test for jewry, u ignorant mutt, your name is freakin solomon, what info do we expect to come out of your lying mouth. For you are a jew, after all, and probably even a fake jew, as 90 % of you evil moneys are fake...
YOu said there is no test for jeww.... offcourse youre gonna say that.. What else can you say, that you have no origin, and you are fake??
Its quite easy really, take a normal jew, a biblical jew, im sure its not hard to find, you still have 10%. so 1 in 10 would be a biblical jew. Put his dna under an electron microscope, and put your monkey dna genes under a microscope and observe the difference.. All indians have similar dna, all italians have similar dna, all arabs have similar dna, all russians have similar dns, and naturally all moneys have similar dna... JEWS please stop misinforming people and make this place a nasty ignorant place to live, you are the reason of all the wars that ever happened as the next 2 years will prove
Whoa. We have a little friend.
How nice.
OK ignorant one. "Jewishness" is not DNA, not ethnicity, it is more like being an American, a nationality combined with a belief system, to which anybody can belong.
There is a problem with this?
your an idiot. it clearly shows in egyptian art that they are lighter skinned that that of nubians or africans in war campaign drawings in egypt. Are egyptians black now ?. No.
i know many middle eastern people with wool like hair that is curly. doesn't mean shit. you just want cultural security since you don't have one.
stop smoking crack, your bluring between reality and your made up crap you believe.
Here is my opinion, which is based on fact, opinion recollection, and speculation. I believe that most Jews (especially those from Europe (Ashkenazim) and those of the Middle East/North Africa (Sephardi/Mizrahi) have some Israelite/Levant heritage since Jews of these extractions do not intermix much, and rarely have their been significant amount of conversions (one of the major conversions to Judaism was among the Turkish Khazars). Some Jews have more Israelite than others. I know a side of my family who are Polish Jews. They generally have reddish/blond hair, pink skin and blues eyes. Another side of my family, Ukrainian Jews, have olive skin, wavy hair, and dark eyes. I tend to dismiss theories of the original Jews being black. They are Afro-Semitic. And even if Moses passed as the Pharaoh's
child or whatever, we do not know how the Ancient Egyptians look (they certainly were not white though).
Below is a link of how Jesus, a Judean/Palestinian Jew most likely looked. Compare and contrast with the modern Jewish sects:
Ashkenazim (Central and Eastern Europe)
Sephardi (Iberia, North Africa, Turkey)
Mizrahi (Middle East)
Beta Israel (Ethiopian)
Cochin (Indian)
Kaifeng (Chinese)
etc...
Here is the link: http://millyonair.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/tb_jesuslead-lg.jpg
ah the jew first came from south arabia a place name saba know as yemen today back than and they were bunch of tribes
and than it was unified by the same religion and than the storie start by them searching for a land
but the jew today they arent the same just in small numbers and hard to find a jew descend from the real ones
Hmmmmm. you forgot one thing. before Romans, Greeks conquered Egypt keeping Egypt under control for many centuries. Wich means that there was a massive bum of inter- marry. back at that time Ethiopia didn't exist. So what the hell are you talking about.
And BTW. Palaistine or Israel or what ever you wanna call it belongs to both races. There is no such a thing as Jews were here first and this is the land of their origins. That is a pure fabrication of some radical Jewish idiots with inferiority complexes and issues beyond comprehension.
I am curious about one thing. Before Jews were enslaved by Egyptians, where were their based?
you are chatting SHIT BIG TIME.
I totally agree with you. A lot of false info that benefits them plus there is one HUUUUUUGE fact about Jews. Why the hell the last 3000 years every onther non jew nation want's to anihilate them. there mast be a reason because things do not happen just like that. Say 1000 years ago people didn't have media or satelites or any other way to comunicate or branewash each other. AND YET history proves that everyone hates them. I am not saying it is a good thing that non jew nations wanted or wanna do but the reason behind it.I don't wanna hear that it is because of their religion or what so ever, because there were a many other religions and people were fighting indead, but no one wanted to anihilate a whole race.
PS: It is very sad to say that what you said about money was funny and true :)
Sophia??? Whoooa. A Jew with a Greek name????? Are you really a jew? Are you sure what are you Talking about when you mentioned the "jewishnesssss" or "America" or "beliefes" ????????
OK, four in a row is enough.
http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/
It is the website of the IDF, Israel Defense Forces.
Some people are just upset that the Israelis are NOT the unarmed Jew of WW2 nazi filth infested europe.