Norman Finkelstein is a poor excuse for a Jew, a Human Being, and is not to be taken seriously. He is a failed professor, never had an academic paper published, and has a thing for Joan Peters, that is over the top. This film shows a very sad, pitiful man, who obviously had issues with his parents growing up, and needs a good shrink. We need to stop giving him a forum to spread his radical lies, and hate, and let him go back to Coney Island, to live, and die, alone.
NORMAN IS AN ORIGINAL FELLOW WHO LIKES TO SAY WHAT IS IN HIS MIND AND HE SHOULD. LIFE IS SHORT AND IT IS BETTER TO SAY WHAT WE FEEL TO BE RIGHT RATHER THAN TO PLAY THE GAME. HIS FACTS ARE CHECKED AND HE IS VERY MUCH IN LINE WITH MAINSTREAM INSRAELI HISTORIANS LIKE MORRIS, BEN-AMI OR SEGEV. THE PROBLEM IS THAT HE IS WRONG IN THINKING THAT
ISRAEL SHOULD BEHAVE MORALLY DIFFERENTLY THAT AMERICANS OR ANY OTHER SATE AT ITS CREATION. STATES ARE BORN OUT OF BLOOD AND TEARS AND SORRY IF PALESTINIANS SHOULD SUFFER BUT ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO BE CREATED AND BELIEVE IN ITS ZIONIST DREAM LIKE AMERICANS BELIEVED ONCE IN THEIR MANIFEST DESTINY. IT MIGHT BE MORALLY QUESTIONABLE BUT IN REALITY JEWS ARE NOT WORSE OR BETTER THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE. WE WANT OUR STATE AND WE WILL FIGHT FOR IT. WE DON'T MAKE OMELETTES WITHOUT BREAKING EGGS..
Unlike a lot of other radical poseurs- Norman has actually altered the terms of the debate on Israel/Palestine. It used to be "cycle of violence"...now, it's all about Israel's Occupation. The jews who hate him are essentially rodefs, neurotic chain-link fence jews who interpret comments critical of Israel to be attacks on their own burping, scratching, fragile, neurotic little nerd identities. The only jews who still cling to the zionist bullshit are alta cockas and jewish boys whom jewish girls have been vomiting at the sight of since junior high. Israel advocacy is their raison d'etre. It defines them as men, or rather schleps.
Good bless Norman Finkelstein
America needs a hundred more men like him. Men of principle and learning not afraid to speak truth to power. I support him fully.
"What makes his strength is that he seldom expresses his own views. In most cases he cites the relevant international law"
I would be grateful for RoL if he/she were to read the interview F. gave in Lebanon and make the case that he was spreaking for international when he defended Hizzballa's aggression against Israel's northern civilians. I shall need the precise law cited, + an analysis of the situation that led to the war.
I hope sensible people will watch the language being used by people like Allyson. See how they show no shame. They have no civility.
They just spew empty bullshit rhetoric. "Such and such is a self-hating Jew." "Such and such is an anti-semite." Etc etc
They never talk about the issues because they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Pay attention to them. It's not difficult to spot the vapidity of their ideas.
It is obvious you are brainwashed in every way. Finkelstein is one of the best political-scientists in AMerica, but because he destroys all pro-Israeli puppets in debates he is a pitiful man. He was one of DePaul's favorite teachers, but because of his destruction of Dershowitz's book, and the letter Dershowitz wrote to DePaul he lost his tenure. Also, if both sides of your family on your mom and dad's sides were all killed in the Holocaust, wouldnt there be problems in your youth. He is a brilliant man, and you Jew-supremacists who laugh at hundreds of deaths of Palestinian children are disgusting pitiful people. Israel is the terrorist state, who will not give peace to the Palestinian people, while even Hamas said it would go to peace under the 1967 UN borders. But Israel's hard-core Zionist leaders are disgusting and would rather watch the Palestinians die. You of all people are calling someone pitiful.
I think Norman Finkelstein did'nt hate Israel, he just told the truth about facts that mostly came from people and institutions inside Israel. That was happened because Israel is a democratic state and have freedom of speech, if Israel is totalitarian state like Iraq under Saddam then Norman Finkelstein wouldn't like he is today.
I am not Joan Peters
I am a Zionist
I am a Jew
I am not afraid of your stupid assinine comments
and I do believe Norman is a sick man.I am not intimidated by your verbal attacks, and this is about hatred of Jews and the democracy in Israel. God Bless Israel and the Jewish People!
This film if filth, like Norman
N. Finkelstein should be taken as an example for mankind.fighting his whole life for peace truth and justice.
he could be saying the same lies dershowitz and others say and live a good life, be fucking rich...
but he rather says the truth and gets smashed in the media....
N. Finkelstein is one of the biggest HEROS in history
Allyson, dear, you add a certain flair to the term "ad hominem" attack. You manage to take the typical, predictable accusations of "self-hating Jew" and give them a more colourful setting.
The image of him alone on his deathbed, alone in his apartment, ready to face his Maker, alone, after living a lonesome and pathetic existence, and ...did I say alone?
But argument wise, you have nothing at all to say about Norman Finkelstein's academic work.
Norman Finkelstein was renowned as an excellent teacher at DePaul's, praised by students and colleagues alike.
(Look it up).
Praised by Raul Hilberg, considered to be the ultimate authority on Holocaust studies, for his book "The Holocaust Industry".
(Look it up)
Supported for his terrific scholarship by the likes of Noam Chomsky, whom, as you might have heard, is considered to be the most important intellectual of our generation, and who blurred Norman Finkeltein's excellent book "Beyond Chutzpah",
and respected by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe- who admitted that Finkelstein
tore Alan Dershowitz' credibility in the academic world to shreds in that same book; "Beyond Chutzpah".
(Look it up).
Eddie, the Nazis organised razzias and convined Jews to ghettoes- stripping them of their goods, taking their houses from them, all under the pretext that Jews were less than human and a necessary egg to break in the interest of the Aryan omelette they called Lebensraum.
I'll let you work out the obvious analogy here, for yourself.
noga: I think you'd be rather hard pressed trying to find anyone, besides yourself, who would negate a people the right to ward off foreign invasion and occupation. This widespread sentiment has it's reflection in international law, a concept which Israel has historically laughed at since it's inception in 1948.
The right to resist foreign invasion has been affirmed numerous times by a number of UN bodies, including the UN Security Council, the UN General Assembly, the UN Commission on Human Rights, the International Law Commission and the International Court of Justice .
See UN General Assembly Resolutions 37/43, 1514, 3070, 3103, 3246, 3328, 3382, 3421, 3481, 31/91, 32/42 and 32/154,
as well as CHR Resolution No. 3 XXXV, 21 February 1979 and CHR Resolution No. 1989/19, 6 March 1989.
I imagine you are intelligent and reasonable enough to admit that an invaded people exposed to ethnic cleansing would, naturally, resist by any means necessary.
I suppose you are informed enough to know all about the wall/fence, again in expansion. And the colonialist settlements that have been continously growing between 1948-early '50s, and which have been in constant, gradual, expansion since the 1967 war, even doubling and tripling during times of "peace process".
1+1=2
foreign invasion and settlements+people thrown out of their homes and treated as less than human= violent retaliation.
Igor, your critique of Norman Finkelstein is actually simultaneously the best one here and the worst.
Many countries were, indeed, founded on ethnic cleansing, even long before anyone thought up the term "ethnic cleansing".
America was indeed founded by ethnically cleansing the native population.
As was Australia. As is Israel.
So, you say, if it was right for the Boers South Africa or the England's Australia, or Europe's America, why isn't it right for the European/Russian Israel?
Here's the point you try to rationalise away.
It wasn't right then, and is not right now.
Genocide and ethnic cleansing are deplorable acts of inhumanity.
The very worst crimes humankind is capable of. Erasing an entire people.
Who is to say, that in order for Jews to live at peace in a land of their own, it is absolutely necessary for that land to be not only of their own, but ONLY for their own?
Why not live together with an Arab population?
Why insist on kicking them out?
Why insist on terrorising it's neighbours?
Even David Ben-Ghurion himself vehemently opposed Israel staying in the territories it conquered in 1967. He argued it was hard enough to ethnically cleanse Israel, why conquer more land with more Arabs on it to cleanse?
It is clearly not a matter of having the right to land and peace- it is a matter of having someone else's land, not once, in an operation that ended in 1948-
not even with an operation which ended in 1967-
but an ongoing agenda of colonialist expansion.
Israel wants to continue to spread, like a cancer.
The State of Israel has adapted a policy of ethnic cleansing towards Palestinians since 1948.
As you well know,as many reputable historian like Benny Morris, Shlomo Ben-ami, and so on, have proven.
The sad part is that 61 years later, Israelis seem to think that that Zionist policy of ethnic cleansing was not the CAUSE of the hostilities with Palestinians and the Arab world, but rather the only viable way to protect the Jewish state, DESPITE the hostilities.
One doesn't need to be a historian to see the fallacy in that logic.
You are looking backwards in time from a situation that resulted from violent attacks on Jewish people - many of them indogenes who'd lived in Hebron for example for thousands of years - and also at literally thousands of years of victimization - and blaming them on the Jews who were (and continue to be) targeted.
Similarly using words like "genocide" and "apartheid" when these along with ghettos and religiously or legally mandated second-class (at best) and precarious existence of JEWISH people (and other minorities) throughout the Middle East, culminating in pogroms and their near-total evacuation from Arab lands after WWII, is upside down, backwards, prejudicial and absurd.
It's also a form of projection: accusing Israel of crimes that are actually committed by other nations.
Finally I am tired of hearing that people have a right to be violent, "resistance" or no "resistance". Instead of trying to justify the violence how about looking at the violence itself as the primary cause of - the violence?
Instead of trying to justify violence we should try looking at the violence that not only targeted Jews in the Yishuv but daily claims lives throughout the MENA.
This includes "honor" killings, political warfare, religious warfare, clan warfare - suicide bombings - mosque bombings - attacks on police - attacks on markets - widespread terror - indeed entire peoples have been attacked and killed by the millions just since 1900 - religious minorities, ethnic minorities in particular - and of course women.
So instead of focusing on the Arab-Israeli conflict and blaming the Jews for all this trouble try looking at the tens of millions of people who have died just since WWII - often in civil wars throughout the region.
And try looking at the real civil and human rights situation throughout this area as well. Isn't it possible that the Arab/Israeli conflict is a symptom rather than the disease?
There IS apartheid in the Middle East but it isn't in Israel, which is hardly a religious or ethnic monolith as you propose. You are making a false claim and falsely accuse Israel of not wanting its Arab citizens, or of desiring to expel them, which is simply untrue.
It is true there are SOME extremists in Israel and there are bigoted Jews. This is not however a large percentage of people, it is not Zionist or Israeli government philosophy - I do agree however that these people exist and they upset me too but to jump from that to a claim that Israel is either an apartheid state or "genocidal" in intent or at its base is an egregious falsehood and a libel.
However, it IS a capital crime to sell land to Jews in the P.A.
i have yet to see norman finklestein lose a debate, he is armed with facts and cannot be beaten. i feel like crying when i see how he has treated and branded a self-hating jew. this man has the courage to speak the truth, i hope one day i can be half the man he is.
If incinerating 400 Palestinian Children (Darkies) is morally justafiable to Israel....Why didn't they allow journalists to go into Gaza to see the Hamas "terrorists"?
To protect the lives of journailists? Hardly.
Or so they don't see what White Phosporous burning human beings, children, down to their bones. It's a horrible, horrible, way to die.
Why not complete the historical irony and start using Zyklon B in Gaza.
What's the difference between a wild eyed Zionist and a Nazi?
No one has a monopoly on bigotry. Neither Arabs or Americans or Europeans or, dare I say it.... Israelis; Even you.
But if your idea of JUSTICE is to relive some fantasy of fighting off the Nazis instead of being put to death like some meek lamb...be my guest. I'd also suggest you seek psychiatic help.
I think psychologists call this "Transferance". Or is it Projection?
Either way, killing 400 children who happen to be the wrong color, with such impunity and then to say this whole Israeli engineered operation (On the day of US presidential elections) started by those "dirty stinking Palestinians", is a level of cynicism I've rarely witnessed.
And then the nerve to pass this off as self defence when Israel refused to remove the blockade for food, medicene and fuel, as per agreed in the June Ceasefire of 2008.
Let's say you are right for argument's sake: Why did the Israeli Army stop Journalists going into Gaza? See what I mean?
I may be Dumbkopf, heaven knows I've been called worse things, but I suggest you do get psychiatric help, For your own sake.
Your own afflictions involve stupefying ignorance, self-righteous arrogations, an elaborate use of picknose sneers and auto-cranial-posterior displacement syndrome. Though that's far from an exhaustive list.
As to correcting your ignorance, the lone quality you bring to bear that can be approached on more rational and cogent grounds, NGO Monitor has commentary on HRW's and AI's own recent anti-Israel reports and is in the process of producing still lengthier reports on the subject. That assumes your information comes from HRW or AI, at least in terms of the ultimate basis of your ignorance, but that's where the proponderance of the specious, anti-Israel reports are originating from. Excerpt:
"... allegations of civilian deaths and claims regarding the military context rest on Palestinian statements and ideology. Marc Garlasco, the main author and HRW’s “military expert,” has a history of making such pseudo technical allegations that lack evidence and simply repeat Palestinian claims, as in the 2006 “Gaza Beach” incident, and regarding IDF actions in the 2006 Lebanon War.
"Similarly, Amnesty International published a report entitled Operation ‘Cast Lead’: 22 Days of Death and Destruction (July 2, 2009), charging Israel with “war crimes” during the conflict. As in the case of the HRW pseudo-report, the prejudicial and tenuous 127-page publication ignores considerable evidence that Hamas used human shields, minimizes Palestinian violations of international law, and promotes boycotts and “lawfare” against Israel. The only mention of kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit was in a footnote, underlining Amnesty’s double standards in the application of human rights norms. (NGO Monitor is in the process of preparing detailed analyses of HRW’s and Amnesty’s claims.)"
The CounterTerrorism Blog's commentary on Israel-Hamas also remains relevant. I won't excerpt anything, but they have several reports on the January conflict and it's a solid, well researched and well argued resource in general.
Excuse me! Despite what you are assuming that I am some pesudo intellectual Israeli basher, nothing could be further from the truth. But please feel free to exhaust the expletives. I always enjoy listening to trite Pseudo Liberal Fascists.
Now if the HRW and UNHCR reports are so bogus and Anti-Semitic, as you are insinuating; if Amnesty are such Jew haters, and B'Tselem are Self hating Jews....Why is it only your assertion we are hearing?
Or should I take into account your superior tone? Does that Sanctify the bloodlust and duplicitous nature of Israeli politics?
The figures and historical evidence makes a lie of your bloviating apologtics for Israeli Fascism.
Basiclly anyone who disagrees with you is a Self hating Jew or Anti Semitic? Your big lie is just that. One look at the pictures of the Dead Children and you will see what happened. Or have you the GUTS to look on all those dead children?
The irony is there are many Israeli and Jewish peace activists throughout the world. They just don't get the air time on TV as they don't jibe with the policies of Israeli High Command.
Look at the pictures of those 400 Palestinian children (killed by the IDF, not some phantom hamas human shield); look at them, then come back and hurl your vacuous insults.
But if the wanton killing of Palestinian children is a godley thing for you....then you are beyond the pale. You have become the very image of those who sought to destroy Jews.
You're an anonymity who prudently chooses to remain anonymous, you're a picknose hack whose commentary reflects the mental landscape of a middle-schooler and which content reflects question begging presumption and rank ignorance. That's why I provided an extended excerpt and two links to better inform the subject in question and to reflect upon your moralistic bravado and triumphalism.
Likewise again, I never considered raising you to the level of "pseudo-intellectual."
When a willfully blind, progressively blind Dumbkopf such as yourself lay all blame on Zionists, JOOZ, while you ignore the World-Wide islamist jihad that goes on virtually everyday, ALL OVER THE WORLD, I must wonder why.
- 9/11
- Londons 7/7/05 bus and underground bombings
- Muslim doctors SUV attack on Glasgow airport
- Madrids 3/11 bombings
- Mumbai India massacre
- bombing of Pan Am 103
- FAILED sneaker bomber convert to Islam richard reid
- Beslan school massacre
- Muslim War criminal saddam husseins use of WMD (poison gas) on the Kurds of Halabja (5,000 died)
- Death fatwa on Salman Rushdie for writing a book of fiction
- Honor Killings/Rapes
- Brainwashing of paleswinian children in school and kiddie shows, to become Shaeeds (die attacking Infidels)
- Bombing USS Cole
- bombing 2 US embassies in Africa (disregarding the safety of local population)
- plotting to attack Fort Dix
- VIDEO TAPING AND BEHEADING INFIDELS (like Journalist Daniel Pearl)
- Declaring intention to "wipe Israel off the map" while working day and night in underground nuclear weapons production facilities as the president of the ISLAMOFASCIST REGIME OF iran does
- the torture and eventual execution of the Jewish man in France by Muslims
- Taliban fighters, men, hiding in BURQAS to elude capture
- Kuwait kicked out it's paleswinians due to their support of saddam hussein - even Muslims don't like fifth columnists
- the kicking out of 700,000+ Jews from Arab countries in 1948
kaiser Dumbkopf, try reading the hamass charter of 1988 - or at least get the pdf of the charter and "FIND" the words "freemasons", "lions", "rotary" and see that islamofascist hamass, like the nazis, HATE Freemasons too.
Again, WHY are you so willfully, progressively BLIND?
Now that I've been put in my place, maybe you can explain why you would only choose reports which agree with you.
Would these reports have Mossad origins?
Since I am assuming much, may I, at the least, presume you have no problems with killing 400 Palestinian children with White Phospherous bombs?
I will take it you have no problem with infanticide since you refuse to address this.
As for my remaining Anonymous: What do you want? My address and social security number so you can send a Mossad death Squad?
Please by all means publish your details. We dont want anyone accusing you of being anonymous.
Your crass tantrums aside, did I say Arabs are saints? Or that Islamists are saintly?
Stupidity and ignorance and desperation knows no national boundry, or religious creed or race.
Starving the people in Gaza is going to test anyone's patience.
As for world wide Islamo Fascism...well that has it's origins in the arming and training of the Afghan Tribes and Arabs during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Funded by the CIA and called Operation Cyclone.
Unfortunately someone forgot to tell Bin Laden Operation Cyclone had ended. If you are going to create this Frankenstein or Golem, then don't be surprised if it eventually turns on you.
There is also, historically, the policy of America funding dictatorships in the Middle East. That is going to cause resentment and radicalization of the suppressed population.
Your best defense for your blindspot of World-Wide islamofascist atrocities is that you never called islamofascists "saints"? LOL!
Can you direct us to any post of yours where you rail over islamofascist atrocities committed anywhere in the World - just to prove you are "unbiased", "evenhanded"?
Are you one of those people who cry "disproportionate response"?
If proportionality is important to you, since islamofascism is behind most terrorist acts today, you should have a proportionate number of posts on many blogs/websites decrying islamofascism. AND proportionately you would have posted MORE anti-islamofascist screeds than anti-Zionist screeds. Do you?
Where are the starving people in Gaza? Is the hamass leadership starving? Any pictures of emaciated palestinians?
Where is Suha Arafat, former First Lady of palestine? Does she live in palestine with her people, or elsewhere? How much of a pension does Suha get from being the wife of yassir arafat?
When THE WALL, erected by EGYPT at the SOUTHERN border of Gaza was pierced, why were motorcycles brought in? Can gazans EAT motorcycles?
Why did hamass use ambulances to ferry fighters and weapons, use schools as firing positions, use mosques as weapons caches?
Why does saudi arabia have Muslims-Only Cities (Mecca for example)?
Why does saudi arabia fund the construction of mosques in the Infidel parts of the World, yet PROHIBIT the construction of any NON-MUSLIM house of worship anywhere in SA?
Clearly there is a segment of the Persian people who want to throw off the yoke of the islamofascist theocratic gang who have set back Iran several hundred years. I wish the anti-islamofascist regime protesters success.
I do support them.
Iran had one Thug replaced by another.
Why wouldn't I support people to lead free lives?
As for Islamo Fascists: You have backward idiots in all walks of lives. (Including the Settlers on the West Bank.) As for Family dictatorship in Saudi Arabia, the originator for most of the 9-11 hijackers, they are backed to the hilt by the US government.
As for Gaza, it's nothing more than an open air prison: Blockading it from land sea and air is only going to radicalize the population. Also no thanks to that other family dictatorship in Egypt. You won't agree with me but it was Israel which broke the 6 month ceasefire.
I won't go into the Orwellian lies of Israel.
There's plenty of blame to go around. Even the Bush family have Bin Ladens as business partners.
Aside from your initiating these petty insults, I don't know where you get the idea I was defending Radical nuts in Islam....just because I mourn the loss of 400 Palestinian children at the hands of Zionist Israel?
Who? The protesters or the islamofascist regime who you give scant reproach?
> Iran had one Thug replaced by another.
> Why wouldn't I support people to lead free lives?
Because it's counter-revolutionary? Reactionary? Why do you turn a blind eye to islamofascist thuggery? To avoid being labeled a "Zionist" as the hamass charter labels Freemasons, Lions and Rotarians?
Are there backwards idiots in hamass, muslim brotherhood, wahabbists, progressives, socialists, NGOs?
As for 9/11, do you believe that some of the islamofascist individuals identified as the 9/11 hijackers, are any of them STILL ALIVE?
Q. What kind of an "open-air prison" fires 8,000 rockets, has a TV station broadcasting racist "religious" sermons, kiddie shows, has elections that install racist thugs as a leadership?
A. hamasstan, gaza.
Will you go into the Orwellian lies of the left, of progressives, of socialists, of islamofascists? That would be interesting.
After 9/11 the US should have kept the bin laden family in Guantanamo until the Saudis turned over OBL to the US.
kaiser Dumbkopf, you commit Sins of Omission when you IGNORE islamofascist atrocities committed all over the World.
You seem to have no problem with the subjugation of women in islamic republics (Pakistan, Islamofascist iran, Saudi Arabia (women can't drive cars, must walk behind men, can be executed on the word of a spurned suitor).
Why is that?
What uniform do hamass fighters wear to distinguish themselves from REAL civilians? You do know that hamass and hezbullah fighters wear CIVILIAN clothing AND the taliban were wearing BURQAS in Afghanistan to elude capture???
Kaiser, you're the one who "initiated" the insults, so you can't even get the simplest, the most mundane of facts correct.
As to anonymity, it's the combination of anonymity and your picknose sneers and your presumption and arrogations in general - that's the issue that was being hi-lighted. If you're going to forward grade-school level arrogations that you fail to substantiate, you're expecting others to play by Marquess of Queensberry rules? Nice work, if you can get it.
Further, via a couple of links and the earlier excerpt, I did respond, if in general terms. But here's a more specific link still, excerpt of the summary follows:
+ On March 26, 2009, Human Rights Watch (HRW) issued a 71-page report headlined "Rain of Fire: Israel's Unlawful Use of White Phosphorous in Gaza." As in HRW's other statements on Gaza, this report reflects a manipulation of "evidence" and lack of professionalism to support pre-determined political and ideological positions.
+ NGO Monitor's analysis of "Rain of Fire" highlights: 1) reliance on unverifiable and highly questionable evidence; 2) political and ideological biases of the authors, which would explain manipulation of the evidence; and 3) dubious interpretations of international law. These continue a well-established pattern of false claims and a biased agenda in HRW publications regarding Israel.
+ The entirely disproportionate attention given to this narrow aspect of this conflict erases the wider context of aggression and response. The charges of "war crimes" are unjustified, and reflect HRW's role in the wider Durban strategy of demonization.
+ The lack of credibility results from reliance on unreliable and tampered evidence; false and inaccurate claims; and internal contradictions. One section of the report claims that the IDF targeted civilian areas with white phosphorous, but other sections admit that the "researchers were unable to determine precisely where the white phosphorous landed and what effect it had on the civilian population."
+ The authors of "Rain of Fire" include Marc Garlasco, whose previous work for HRW has exhibited factual inaccuracies and significant flaws in methodology; Fares Akram, a Palestinian whose father was killed during the fighting; and Darryl Li, a pro-Palestinian activist who has worked at the highly politicized Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR).
+ The authors substitute their limited military expertise and knowledge for the experience of the IDF commanders. Thus, HRW extends its claim of credibility far beyond the realm of human rights.
Apart from Hamas, The Mossad wear civilian clothes; the CIA do and so do FBI and MI6.
Even the special forces guarding General Dostum work Afghan garb.
I don't omit thugs from the Islamic world. you just want me to scream like a hysterical school girl at radicals on one side.
As for women being forced to wear modest clothing (Burkas), one thing you don't consider is that these are culturally conservative cultures. Secondly, if you have ever been to a muslim culture you will notice something peculiar about a large Minority of Men: They lear at women in an disconcerting way. Hence why many women protect themselves from harrasment.
As for me deliberately omitting...Have you condemed Israel for its war crimes? No of course not. You just want me to dance to your tune. You have no intention of holding Israel to account for its Murder Policies.
> Apart from Hamas, The Mossad wear civilian clothes; the CIA do and so do FBI and MI6.
Even the special forces guarding General Dostum work Afghan garb.
What uniform do the Afghan Taliban wear to distinguish themselves from REAL civilians BEFORE the Taliban men don Burqas to pose as females???
What happens to Mossad, CIA, agents if they fall into the hands of islamofascists?
Is it OK to treat hamass operatives as islamofascists treat Mossad, CIA operatives?
> I don't omit thugs from the Islamic world. you just want me to scream like a hysterical school girl at radicals on one side.
You DO scream like a hysterical school girl when it comes to Israel, so why do you object to screaming against islamofascists, al qada, taliban, islamofascist regimes?
> As for women being forced to wear modest clothing (Burkas), one thing you don't consider is that these are culturally conservative cultures. Secondly, if you have ever been to a muslim culture you will notice something peculiar about a large Minority of Men: They lear at women in an disconcerting way. Hence why many women protect themselves from harrasment.
You are saying that Muslim men are less able than Western men to control their impulses?
There are groups that value conservative mores in the US - Mormons, evangelicals. Are as non-judgemental towards Western social conservatives?
> As for me deliberately omitting...Have you condemed Israel for its war crimes? No of course not. You just want me to dance to your tune. You have no intention of holding Israel to account for its Murder Policies.
I want you to condemn Islamofascism for WAR CRIMES (using human shields), using civilian homes as firing positions, for the islamofascist atrocities I listed above - the 9/11 sneak attacks, London bombings, Madrid, Bali, Mumbai, Pan Am 103, Halabja, honor killings.
For some reasons I expect you to continue defending islamofascism, islamofacist racism, islamofascist war crimes at any cost.
Unless I agree that Israel farts Tiffany cufflinks and "Islamo Fascists" torture MOSSAD and CIA agents then I must be part of the Islamo Fascists?
In case it escaped your pea sized brain, Afghanistan is not Bel Air. It is a harsh enviroment which is reflected in the character of the people. But I'm wasting my breath. You are not listening.
Utter waste of my time debating anything with an autistic fool like you.
Dont bother replying becasue I wont be arguing any point with you. Jerk.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT FACTUALLY NORMAN MIGHT BE RIGHT
BUT HE DENIES THE REALITY OF THE CREATION OF ANY MODERN STATE.
WE ARE ALL BORN OUT OF SINS APART FROM JESUS AND THAT IS VALID FOR MOST STATES...
IT IS ABOUT SURVIVAL AND LAND AND ECONOMIC REALITY AND
THE SPACE IS SO DRY AND SMALL....
THE ISRAELIS KNOW MOST OF THEM THAT THE SITUATION IS
DREADFUL FOR PALESTINIANS BUT WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS TO FEED, YOU NEED LAND AND RESOURCES...IT IS AS EASY AS THAT.
IT IS ALL ABOUT SURVIVAL AND AS LONG AS THE ISRAELIS HAVE
WEAPONS AND THE SUPPORT OF EUROPE AND THE US THEY WILL
KEEP ACTING LIKE THEY DO...AND FUCK INTERNATIONAL LAW..
ANY STATE WOULD DO THE SAME...
IS THAT RIGHT NO BUT IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE GIVEN THE
SAD HISTORY JEWS HAVE WITHT HE HOLOCAUST THE ARABS
ATTACKING THEM TWICE ETC.....
NORMAN IS AN IDEALIST..HE HAS NO KIDS TO FEED..HE THINKS LIKE A CHILD DREAMING OF A PERFECT WORLD...THAT IS BEAUTIFUL BUT IT IS ALSO WRONG..
Dude, what are u talking about? That state was given birth officially over 60 years ago. Apartheid or the illegal settlements have nothing to do with creating a state but everything to do with corruption, violation of human rights etc.. All that stuff people dont wanna hear about. The problem with most zionists is that they use the founding of America as an excuse for their own illegitimate policies in Palestine. Policies which are not supported by any other significant country than the U.S. and which are against her own Declaration of Independence not to mention the international law.
To Rowen Taylor,
Talk about dying and living alone. Pretty thick. Why is it that Norman Finkelstein, as a jew, is somehow pathetic or sad character when he speaks for *universal* rights and not the rights of jews with expense of others. Are we to conclude that Germans who disagreed and criticized their leader before WWII like Carl Jung, or the russians who protested against Stalin for example were sad characters as well? What is so sad about Mr. Finkelstein having the courage, decency or what have you to speak out what most of us dont? His uncompromising integrity?
Norman Finkelstein is more respected and has more "academic crebility" than any other Hollywood lawyer outside the US and what comes down to him as an academic he is in a league of his own. The fact that you make incorrect statements about his career in public website, that he never had an academic paper published doesn't surprise me as I am only left to conclude that you got that piece of information from that same place where you get the rest of your information concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. You should double check your sources before making such a silly statement. Theres not many who can even approach his level, not to mention refute him. His facts are ALWAYS straight and untempered with which cant be said for the simple and pathetic excuses of minds like Dershowitz, Joan Peters and my personal favorite Mark Twain. I mean Mark Twain for gods sake. Wasn't he a story teller of some sort?
i was positively surprised by this film when i saw it in boston.
i expected a film much more positive on finkelstein but
i think it is a really balance film and it is finally much more
about the traumatic effect of the holocaust on jews than about the ip conflict.
Since you are such an expert on N. Finkelstein, why don't you go ahead and post the three biggest blatant lies that he has written or said so that all those reading your opinion will know that it wasn't pulled straight out of your ass...
Your silence is DEAFENING you pathetic ass clown...
You gotta be kidding. This is straight from his book:
"Jewish elites in the United States have enjoyed enormous prosperity. From this combination of economic and political power has sprung, unsurprisingly, a mindset of Jewish superiority. Wrapping themselves in the mantle of The Holocaust, these Jewish elites pretend—and, in their own solipsistic universe, perhaps imagine themselves—to be victims, dismissing any and all criticism as manifestations of “anti-Semitism.” And, from this lethal brew of formidable power, chauvinistic arrogance, feigned (or imagined) victimhood, and Holocaust-immunity to criticism has sprung a terrifying recklessness and ruthlessness on the part of American Jewish elites. Alongside Israel, they are the main formentors of anti-Semitism in the world today. Coddling them is not the answer. They need to be stopped."
Scholarship this isn't. It's more like ranting.
Worse, Finkelstein buys into some of the worst antisemitic memes - then blames the victims. He claims that antisemitism itself is actually a political tool of the Jews!
That's outrageous.
It's no surprise to me that he didn't get tenure at Depaul.
As pointed out in the linked article some of Norman Finkelstein's best friends are - neonazis.
I made a simple request which should not be too difficult for you to comply with considering the amount of published material available for you to cull. I just ask for your most heavy ammunition—your big guns. There must be hundreds if not thousands of examples based on your over the top rhetoric of the “self hating Jew” Finkelstein. Please, do not provide links with written rebuttals to an “abridged transcript”, or articles dissecting superfluous minutiae. I want the prime examples which undermine the scholarly integrity of Finkelstein as well as his propositions.
If you feel that the links that you referred to contain these prime examples (lmao) please site which three they are so that all perspective readers here may be persuaded to your point of view. I briefly scanned each link provided and saw nothing that would rise to the level of the over the top rhetoric which each of you have employed. On the contrary, like your diatribes, the links provided seemed to be devoid of substance and replete with over the top assertion, opinion, and rhetoric.
It should be telling to all open minded observers perusing this site that when asked, Finkelstein's detractors are not capable of articulating a coherent logical critique of his scholarship or his honesty.
Sheese. Give us some time already before assuming we don't have any (more) "big guns". I'm not sure however how much time I want to devote to wallowing in Finkelstein's turgid prose just to prove a point.
For now: Exhibit One is DePaul University's refusal to offer him tenure. That speaks to his own university's determination that his scholarship is suspect.
Beyond that if you can't read what we've posted here, if you cannot read Finklestein's own words and see in them a highly prejudiced point of view that is really offering opinion, not fact, then I think your mind is already made up.
I'm sorry for you Sophia if you believe that referring to Finkelstein's denial of tenure at DePaul is tantamount to articulating a coherent logical critique of his scholarship or honesty. But, it is telling to all open minded observers.
Perhaps what you need is a demonstration of a coherent logical critique of one's honesty. Observe:
When Dershowitz learned that Beyond Chutzpa would be published by University of California Press, he launched a campaign to block its publication. After his campaign was unsuccessful, he claimed that no such campaign ever existed. Unfortunately for the integrity and honesty of "the Dersh", a man named Shankar Ramamoorthy obtained much of his correspondence via a California Public Records Act (CPRA) request to the University of California Press. The link below documents nearly 30 emails sent between April 2004 and September 2005 on behalf of Dersh attempting to bully the UC Press into blocking publication.
Now, here is the link where the Dersh states "As the UCP and Finkelstein well know, I have never tried to prevent Finkelstein’s book from being published. Indeed, I await its publication and its inevitable devastation in the marketplace of ideas."
I don’t think you two are actually informed regarding Finkelstein and his views and I would bet my last shekel that neither of you have read any of his books. You seem incapable of mounting a coherent logical critique of the scholarship or honesty of Norman Finkelstein. You employ over the top rhetoric but you demonstrate negligible substance. You refer your audience to laughable sources such as CAMERA, FRONT PAGE MAG, and the ADL. Finkelstein supporters on the other hand enjoy the company of preeminent scholars such as Hillberg and Chomsky. If you were honest, you would own up to being rabid Zionists reflexively attacking any and all who are critical of the racist state of Israel. Readers of these posts will undoubtedly draw their own conclusions.
While I wait, I will offer the courtesy of providing another example of a substantive critique of academic integrity. Again I will use Alan Dershowitz as the model for dishonesty and inappropriate scholarship. In the book Beyond Chutzpa (the one we previously established the Dersh first tried to suppress then denied trying to suppress) Finkelstein accurately quotes Dersh from a 3-11-2002 column in the Jerusalem Post as follows:
The Dersh “advocates not only individual house demolitions but also “”the destruction of a small village which has been used as a base for terrorist operations”” after each Palestinian attack. ““The response will be automatic.”” Such massive destruction, he concludes, will further the ““noble causes”” of reducing terrorism and promoting peace. . . . It is hard to make out any difference between the policy Dershowitz advocates and the Nazi destruction of Lidice [a Czech village destroyed by the Nazis in retaliation for the assassination of a Nazi officer], for which he e expresses abhorrence—except that Jews, not Germans, would be implementing it.”
Now Finkelstein has just pointed out the hypocrisy and immorality that comes natural to the douche Dershowitz. If the Dersh had a shred of academic integrity he would either cling to his statement or he would repudiate it. So what does the slimy weasel do? He claims he was misquoted by Finkelstein and offers his version of the actual quote:
Finkelstein’s “oft-maid [sic] claim, found on page 176 of Beyond Chutzpah, that “”It is hard to make out any difference between the policy Dershowitz advocates and the Nazi destruction of Lidice, for which he expresses abhorrence—except that Jews, not Germans, would be implementing it.”” The trouble is that the policy and passage Finkelstein quotes actually says, “”[Israel] would then publicly declare precisely how it will respond in the event of another terrorist act, such as by destroying empty houses in a particular village that has been used as a base for terrorists, and naming that village in advance.”” In Finkelstein’s world, “”destroying empty houses”” in order to deter terrorism is the equivalent of genocide.”
Unfortunately for the dishonest “scholar” Dershowitz, the quotation concerning “destroying empty houses,” comes from his book Why Terrorism Works and does not appear in his Jerusalem Post column which was accurately quoted by Finkelstein.
Therefore, we see once again how one may employ coherent logic in order to critique another's lack of honesty and academic integrity.
Please, by all means if you are able to make similar critiques of Norman Finkelstein, we are all ears.
My God, where do all these horrible people come from who are praising Norman Finkelstein? Not that the writer who keeps saying "Paleswine" isn't an embarrassment too. What happened, Solomon? Was there a link here from a far-left website?
It is no wonder that Dershowitz tried everything within his power (including lobbying governor Schwarzenegger) to stop the publication of Beyond Chutzpah. In Beyond Chutzpah, Finkelstein meticulously documents how Dershowitz plagiarized from a previously debunked book written by Joan Peters. For instance, both Peters and Dershowitz claim a work by Mark Twain, “The Innocents Abroad” to be their source for many of the same direct quotes. Unfortunately for the plagiarist Dershowitz, he reproduced numerous errors from Peter’s book suggesting conclusively that it was actually Peter’s book and not Twain that he copied. The reproduced errors are as follows:
1. Line 1: The original Twain (p. 485) says “this valley[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz change “this” to “the” but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
2. Line 4: In the original Twain (p. 485), there are commas before and after the word “hereabouts[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the commas but fail to signal the omission (e.g., by using empty brackets).
3. Line 5: In the original Twain (p. 508), the words “Come to Galilee for that” form an entire sentence, ending with a period. Both Peters and Dershowitz follow the word “that” with an ellipsis that is not preceded by a concluding period, but they fail to signal the omission of the period (e.g., by using empty brackets). This cannot be attributed to a stylistic choice to omit the concluding period when a complete sentence is followed by an ellipsis, because on several occasions (e.g., lines 9, 10, and 11) both Peters and Dershowitz include concluding periods followed by ellipses.
4. Line 8: In the original Twain (p. 508), the word “Capernaum” is followed by a semicolon. Both Peters and Dershowitz follow it with a colon but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
5. Line 9: The original Twain (p. 508) says “six funereal plumes of palms[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz say “six funereal palms[,]” omitting the words “plumes of” but failing to signal the omission.
6. Line 9: In the original Twain (p. 508), the word “palms” is followed by a semicolon and thus does not conclude the sentence. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the semicolon and the remainder of the sentence but place the ellipsis after the concluding period instead of before it.
7. Line 9: In the original Twain (pp. 508, 520), the sentence containing the phrase “six funereal plumes of palms” and the sentence beginning “We reached Tabor” are separated by 12 pages and numerous intervening paragraphs. Both Peters and Dershowitz separate those sentences by a single ellipsis and no paragraph break, thus representing that the sentences are part of a single paragraph. This cannot be attributed to a stylistic choice to omit all paragraph structure from the quote, because Peters and Dershowitz did not omit all paragraph structure—they include a paragraph break at lines 10 to 11.
8. Line 10: In the original Twain (p. 520), the words “We reached Tabor safely” are followed by a comma and thus are not an entire sentence. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma and the remainder of the sentence but place the ellipsis after the concluding period instead of before it.
9. Line 10: In the original Twain (p. 520), the words “We never saw a human being on the whole route” are followed by a comma and thus are not an entire sentence. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma and the remainder of the sentence but follow the word “route” with a period and no ellipsis, either before or after the period.
10. Lines 10-11: In the original Twain (pp. 520, 607), the sentence containing the phrase “never saw a human being on the whole route” and the sentence beginning “Nazareth is forlorn” are separated by 87 pages and numerous intervening paragraphs, and “Nazareth is forlorn” occurs in the middle of a paragraph, not at the beginning. Both Peters and Dershowitz separate those sentences with a single paragraph break and no ellipses, representing them as the end and beginning of consecutive paragraphs.
11. Line 11: In the original Twain (p. 607), the words “Nazareth is forlorn” are followed by a semicolon. Both Peters and Dershowitz change the semicolon to a period but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
12. Line 11: In the original Twain (p. 607), the word “accursed” is followed by a comma. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma but fail to signal the omission.
13. Line 11: In the original Twain (p. 607), the word “ruin” is followed by a comma. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma but fail to signal the omission.
14. Line 12: The original Twain (p. 607) says “to-day,” but both Peters and Dershowitz omit the hyphen. (In the original Twain, the hyphen is not merely breaking the word at the end of a line of text; the word appears in the middle of a line.)
15. Line 15: The original Twain (p. 607) says “Saviour’s[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the letter “u” but fail to signal the omission.
16. Lines 16-17: In the original Twain (p. 607), no punctuation follows the word “sang[,]” and there are no quotation marks around the phrase “Peace on earth, good will to men[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz follow “sang” with a comma and place quotation marks before “Peace” and after “men” but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
17. Line 17: In the original Twain (p. 607), the words “living creature” are followed by a comma and thus do not end the sentence in which they appear. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma and the remainder of the sentence but place the ellipsis after the concluding period instead of before it.
18. Line 18: The original Twain (p. 608) says “Chorazin[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the letter “a,” spelling the word “Chorzin[,]” but fail to signal the omission.
19. Line 19: In the original Twain (p. 608), no punctuation follows the word “them[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz erroneously follow “them” with a comma but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
20. Line 20: The original Twain (p. 608) says “Saviour’s[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the letter “u” but fail to signal the omission.
At best, this is the piss poor scholarship that rabid Zionists like Sophia and Eddie reflexively attribute to Norman Finkelstein. Unfortunately for them, their erroneous assertions ring hollow as there is no substance to support their claims.
Sophia and Eddie, your inability to articulate a coherent logical critique of Norman Finkelstein’s honesty or scholarly integrity brings joy to me. INSHALLAH!
No particular link, Joanne. Once in awhile someone comes along and thinks that they are the ONE who will come up with something to finally clear the name of the unfairly persecuted Finkelstein, and that it's all our responsibility to spend time dealing with them, at length...again, as though anyone here owes anything to some guy named "nate" who stumbles in off the street. The fact is, Sophia's quote in #61 demonstrates that Finkelstein is a simple and recognizable anti-Semite, and he would have been written off as the obvious Jew-hating leftist crank he is long ago by the remaining few sycophants he has if he didn't have mommy and daddy to hide behind.
unfortuNATE, I admit that I have NOT spent and am NOT willing to spend time wading through norman finkelsteins CRAP.
I'll leave that to others who enjoy reading stuff that david duke promotes on his website (duke promotes norman finkelsteins rants)
Apparently norman finkelstein has no problems with dukes endorsement. norman needs to sell his books.
Now when it comes to real RACISM, unfortuNATEly you are BLIND to:
- hamas charter of 1988 (same year Pan AM 103 was bombed by islamofascists)
- hamas charter depicts Jews as sons of pigs and monkeys (is that racist unfortuNATE?)
- hamas charter hates Freemasons AND Lions and Rotarians - hamas says they are !Zionists!.
- hezbullah and their penchant for nazi-style outstretched arm salutes
- coincidentally shitlers mein kampf, the arabic edition, is a best seller in the arab world - that may account for the popularity of outstretched arm salutes
- taliban dynamiting of two 1,500 year old Buddahs in Bamiyan Afghanistan (is that islam respecting other religions?)
- the 7/7/05 bus and underground bombing in london by islamofascists
- the 8 year iraq/iran war
- islamofascist regime of iran using children to clear mine fields
- honor killings
- kidnapping of journalists
- beheading of journalist Daniel Pearl while masked men were shouting "allah akbar"
- Beslan school massacre
- Beltway sniper john "muhammed"
- murder of Theo Van Gogh
- death fatwa against Salman Rushdie for writing a book of fiction
- Bali bombing
- failed sneaker bomber richard reid - he is why all passengers must take off their shoes at airport checkpoints
- suicide bombings in iraq
- sunni/shiite inter-religious massacres
- executions of gays by the islamofascist regime of iran
- saddam husseins used of WMD (poison gas) on the Kurds of Halabja Iraq - 5,000 dead
- Mumbai India massacre
- hijacking of the '72 Olympics
- Current day slavery in Sudan
- Somali pirates
From the River to the Sea
PaleSWINE will NEVER BE!
INSHALLAH!
Joanne, hows your "peace quilt" coming along? If you deliver it to Ahmadinejad, he just might be persuaded to accept a World WITH Israel and Jews.
Eddie: "unfortuNATE, I admit that I have NOT spent and am NOT willing to spend time wading through norman finkelsteins CRAP."
To Eddie and Sophia: --->
Typical. When a Zionist cant refute the facts - the topic here was whether Finkelstein's scholarly work is impeccable or not - they change and distract the issue on hand to Ahmedinejad, Hamas, swines, etc... They label people who do not support their political agenda as a racist, Jew hater and, my personal favorite, as an Anti-Semite. Why? Because Finkelstein address the racism and injustice commit by Israel. Simple as that. As if Jews, not to mention non-Jews, aren't allowed to criticize other "Jews" when their actions do so insist. This is the exact reason why you Eddie and Sophia should leave your criticism and conclusions to people who are willing to examine AND question the facts regardless of their own political preferences instead of accusing and persecuting those without any sufficient research done by yourselves. As if we were still living in the Middle Ages...
Facts are facts and scientific research is just that regardless of ones own political stance. This is the defining difference between Finkelstein and Dersh just as it is with most if not all other Zionists.
Rasputin. There's a huge difference between accepting and trying to do something about Israel's shortcomings as a state (which also apply to most states btw) and claiming that Finkelstein is a great scholar.
His own words display a distressing degree of bias and also, I'd put him in the flamethrower category.
What's he's actually done hasn't so much shed light on problems that can be solved with patience and humanity as ratchet up the "debate" to the point that it actually creates a more dangerous and violent situation.
This makes reconciliation between Israeli factions and certainly between Israel and the Arabs less likely, not more likely.
It certainly makes antisemitic attacks against Diaspora Jews more likely and it makes violence against Israel more likely also as it feeds the flames of insane, unreasoning bias. In turn this results in more, not less victimization of Arabs because eventually there will be retaliations.
Then people are hurt and they react often violently; there are more retaliations, etc etc etc ad infinitum.
This is smart? It's good to incite this kind of hatred and this kind of behavior? It's good to feed into an already powerful stream of misojudaism not only in the West but in the Middle East? This will solve the Arab/Israeli conflict?
Whose side are you on really? The side of moderates who are trying to put things back together, encourage creativity and peaceful solutions to problems and make it possible for warring parties to communicate and resolve their differences in a humane manner?
Or do you prefer the side of "radicals" who, claiming to illuminate, do a huge amount of harm not least to people who've already been victimized far too many times?
Frankly I think the latter are more self-indulgent than otherwise. It's easy to get famous by being outrageous. It's a lot harder to work slowly and carefully, a person at a time, to try and reduce racism, religious bigotry and fear.
And, the whole idea of a "Holocaust industry" has overtones of Portnoy doesn't it but also Baader-Meinhof who figured the best way to rebel against their parents was to adapt their grandparents' antisemitism and attack Israel, also committing acts of mindless terror that harmed many innocents.
When a "progressively morally bankrupt" jackasses such as yourself, are faced with a litany of islamofascist atrocities, they are SILENT. Deafingly SILENT.
Boo Hoo. It's another nakbah! It's a catastrophe for dhimmi JOOOZ to kick islamofascist lifted ass!
It's "racist" to oppose islamofascism!
It's "islamophobic" to oppose islamofascism!
It's blasphemy to draw a cartoon of "the prophet" (not blasphemy to destroy Buddhas).
It's "racist" to oppose honor killings - after first raping a muslim woman to mark her as defiled - the only way out is suicide.
RatSputum, Keep buying norman finkelsteins books. He needs the money.
Yoo Hoo, unfortuNATE, where are you????
Did you run away??? YOUR SILENCE is DEAFENING.
Talk about ad hominem and leaving your medication taken. What a waist of server space.
"It certainly makes antisemitic attacks against Diaspora Jews more likely and it makes violence against Israel more likely also as it feeds the flames of insane, unreasoning bias. In turn this results in more, not less victimization of Arabs because eventually there will be retaliations."
Sophia,
That sounds pretty much a threat. Is it?
You talk about antisemitism as if we were still living in the brink of WW2. There's is no more antisemitism than there is racism towards Blacks, Hispanics or Arabs. In fact, quite the opposite. Jews in general are making it far better than any other minority whether in North America or Europe. Further more Jews are making it better than the average citizens in the US and you know this is true. This is not to say they shouldn't or there's something wrong about it, no, but to raise the antisemitism card when raising Israeli policies and Zionist war crimes commit on daily basis on the table is truly thick if anything. So please save it or provide some credible stats which prove otherwise.
How on earth can you construe my comment as a threat?
My statement about incitement causing violence is a reflection of the obvious: when people are radicalized as in the Middle East, they often attack each other.
It's true everywhere. Tell people "the other" is bad often enough, then blame him for this or that and all too frequently action follows thought. Look at Rwanda for example.
In the case of Israel lies, fear and prejudice have resulted in several wars and countless acts of terror against state and people and has resulted in counterattacks.
Incitement from the West is most certainly playing a role here and has done probably since the 1920's when European antisemitism, like the Protocols and later Nazi philosophy were imported to the Middle East during British, French colonial days and also the Germans were influential as well as the Russians. And, many Brits in the Mandate were bigoted against Jews.
Thus my comment is simply a reflection of the fact that innacuracies about Israel and Jewish people in general are feeding into the generally antisemitic culture that certainly pertains in the Middle East today.
This in turn does absolutely nothing to help mitigate the situation between Israel and the Arabs and/or Iran/Iranian proxies. It causes more misunderstandings, it incites people to violence.
Similarly the portrayal of Jews as uniquely evil, as in the Protocols, is an important aspect of the philosophies of Hamas, Hezbollah et.al. and it's hard to see how, when people are portrayed as evil, this doesn't cause violence against them and their state (in the case of Israel).
You're wrong if you think this doesn't exist or that antisemitism isn't a problem even in the West.
The fact that there is prejudice against OTHER groups in the West doesn't mean that Jews aren't also at risk. Antisemitic incidents in the US far outnumber attacks on Christians or Muslims. In Europe it's worse. Check the US Gov't statistics. Anecdotally I live in a multicultural area and I have seen many, many acts of vandalism against Jewish institutions, the offices of politicians known to be Jews and openly religious Jews have been intimidated in the street. This isn't imaginary!
Indeed one of the worrisome aspects of fringe right groups is that white supremacists are feeding off it. Stormfront and KKK are quite pleased with the polarization in American politics and by the general tone of anger, by the conspiracy theories, etc.
By the same token antizionism is frequently driven by or overlaps with antisemitism particularly since Israel is already a fact and can't be undone without grievous harm to millions of people.
Judenhass IS more acute though in the Middle East, indeed President Obama spoke out against incitement - it's high time somebody did because antisemitism in the Middle East is obnoxious, it's a matter of general discourse, ie it is common, it's reinforced even by state media and also religious institutions. It is distressingly common in mainstream Arab papers and on TV and in film.
Middle Eastern antisemitism is a combination of Nazi memes with old prejudices against Jews as well as anti-Israel sentiment. This is a very bad thing and it's responsible to a large degree for the conflict and for ongoing war.
If you don't believe me please do some research on the subject - it isn't hard, it would probably take you about 10 minutes to begin to see my point.
This isn't limited to Muslims either, it's part and parcel particularly of eastern Christianity where replacement covenant and blaming Jews for the death of Jesus remain common.
Check out the philosophy of the group Sabeel for instance.
Another case in point is the Iranian government which promotes mockery of the Shoah, claims it didn't happen then has a cartoon contest about it while simultaneously threatening the state and people of Israel (and no it isn't mistranslation!)
In view of that Finkelstein's assertions are very painful. Surely you can understand that?
As far as Jews being successful - what does that have to do with antisemitism? In fact Muslims in America are better off than most Americans and more likely to have advanced degrees - does that mean there isn't Islamophobia in the US? Please.
Also, the very fact that Jews as a group WERE successful to some degree in Europe exposed them to attack. You should know better than to claim that success is any guarantee against antisemitic sentiment or behavior.
The islamist/wahabbist controlled OPEC, which gouges the ENTIRE WORLD with its OVERPRICED OIL,
(which the ENTIRE WORLD pays for with AFTER-TAX dollars)
is insatiable in it's islamist/wahabbist GREED.
islamofascist crimes against humanity might trigger the retaliatory nuclear destruction of mecca/makka and the kabba.
I hope that the people who value, revere mecca/makka, the kabba, the Hajj, will be able to end the islamofascist onslaught, end islamofascist crimes against humanity.
And just what is saudi arabia (supposedly a friend of the US) doing to help the US, help the World, capture osama bin laden and destroy al qada?
Certainly a saudi would have easier access, be able to penetrate al qada, than a Westerner.
Unless saudi arabia in reality supports obl and al qada.
And where is norman finkelstein, neo-commies, neo-nazi filth, socialist, progressively blind goody-two-shoes, on the islamist, islamofascit threat to the entire World?
Eddie, You have already proven not be worth of a one sentence more than already stated. Learn how to communicate and express yourself in a respectful manner and perhaps you will have people willing to exchange opinions and visions with you next time.
Sophia,
"Thus my comment is simply a reflection of the fact that innacuracies about Israel and Jewish people in general are feeding into the generally antisemitic culture that certainly pertains in the Middle East today."
But myself at least haven't found one, not one, inaccuracy from Finkelsteins study and it must be said I ain't renowned scholar but the fact remains that neither has any serious scholars! That's the point here made by me and others. And when people call him the scum of the earth because he does his work in an uncompromising manner surely is appealing. His uncompromising and uncorrupted approach as a scholar is something to be respect not disrespect, dont you think? And even more considering his background. He is the one who should be making fraudulent accusations and claims if you think about what he has "inherited". For this specific reason I can do nothing but to respect this man. For me he is an exemplary Jew. He has given up from many privileges and committed his whole life for what he sees right and just. He is concerned not only about the Jewish suffering (perhaps the reason Zionists despise him?, no?)but the suffering of mankind. He truly proves not to be a racist or a supremacist and I don't think unlike most Zionists who label him as an antisemite when he doesn't support Israeli policies. Personally I find that kind of thinking truly disgusting, hypocritical and racist/supremacist considering the death toll on both sides and the founding context from the beginning of this conflict.
This man IS honest in his work and has "grown" from the inhumane suffering laid upon his family which usually affects for generations. If you talk to him and ask his views on other conflicts and oppressing regimes he is always speaking for the underdog. In other words he doesn't put his Jewishness in front of injustice which for me personally is just one of the reasons to respect and acknowledge him even more as I was always brought up to treat humans as humans regardless of their ethnicity...
You surely can dislike and disagree with his political stance, that's alright and that's a privilege which you should and MUST have but to label him as an a antisemite because he doesnt support the illegal settlemests, occupation, annexation of land; Israelis unyielding position to expand its territories by the expense of Palestinian suffering and the hideous killing of children by the IDF is NOT a legit reson to label him as an antisemite. Or what would you say?
What comes to inflaming hatred we have one example on this thread already so Im not going to that any more than is needed instead Id like to ask you a couple questions. Why is it that Jews and Palestinians were living *relatively* peaceful before the first Aliyah (not at least killing each other on this scale)? Who were the Irgun and Stern Gang and what were their political agenda and more over how did they manifest and implement it? Do you categorize them as terrorist? And if not, why? One thing is a historical fact though Stern Gang did collaborate with the Nazis against the British during WW2 in Palestine by commiting terrorist attacks. Were they fascists as well? Should we call them Jewonazis or Zionazis? I find that kind of labeling destructive and counterproductive. How would you label them? Patriots? There is ALWAYS more than enough blame to go around that's for sure but the question is how do we recognise the human condition and even more how much are we willing to contribute to prevent that kind of behavior which we do not agree on and how our own attitudes and actions contribute to that behavior. If you're American as I assume, how would you react if the native Indians started bombing your house and killing your children for the sole reason that you are living in their land, that they are the original owners of that land you are living in and you should go, back your bags and go flee to europe where you belong(I'm assuming here once again)? I don't care whether you are a Jew, an Arab or an Inuit; for me it makes no difference as we are all human beings after all.
That's pretty much what I can conclude to you. But hey, that's just me...
Eddie: "Why was the mufti of Jerusalem an ally of your furher Shitler?"
---> You want to talk about Nazi affiliations, terrorism and criminal activities?? Here:
"Early attempts to raise funds through criminal activities, including a bank robbery in Tel Aviv in 1940 and another robbery on 9 January 1942 in which Jewish passers-by were killed, brought about the temporary collapse of the group, and an attempt to assassinate the head of the British secret police in Lod in which three police personnel were killed, two Jewish and one British, elicited a severe response from the British and Jewish establishments who collaborated in an effort to eliminate the underground organisation.[25]"
"In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons."
Considering the rest of your worthless, distasteful and prejudice post in addition to your paranoid/schizophrenic and delusional jargon I have already responded you more for the behest of your mental health than is acguired. For your own interest I suggest that you go back to the medication prescribed to you or if you havent yet had the sense to get some it is about time already.
“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel ‘aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel’s support for Hamas ‘was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,’ said a former senior CIA official.”
Talk about sob's, eh? I can't understand how can u afford laugh about this considering the jewsih deaths and the fact that it is the exact same government which you defend here who aided and supported Hamas to get to power. That same Hamas who is responsible for Jewsih deaths. Their chapter didnt prevent Israel to support them then why do you think it is a sufficient reson to ignore them now?
Norman Finkelstein is not a scholar, he's a propagandist.
In his last book ''This time we went too far'' he really goes too far! He fabricates a real CONSPIRACY THEORY.
First, he says that Hamas accepted the existence of Israel.
Therefore, according to him, Israel decided to destroy Hamas or to harm it so much that it would become impossible for this group to accept the existence of Israel.
This assertion comes from his imagination, there is no solid argument behind it.
First of all, in 2008, Israel proposed to give 99% of the West Bank to the Palesinian authority plus a safe passage connecting the West Bank to the Gaza strip.
Why Israel would try to crush Hamas in order to make sure that it will never recognize Israel if a few months before, Israel has proposed to give up almost everything to the Palestinian authority?
Also, Olmert said in November of 2008, that Israel has to withdraw from all of the Occupied territories.
It proves that when Kadima was in power, Israel did not want to keep the West Bank as he says.
Finkelstein also says that 90% of the Israelis supported the Gaza massacre. He says that is Israel is a ''satanic'' and a ''lunatic'' state. He went further by saying that this country comes from the ''boils of hell''.
What kind of scholar would talk like that?
He does not try to understand the Israeli public opinion, he INSULTS the people of Israel.
First of all, 90% of the Israelis supported a war against Hamas (that was launching hundreds of rockets on the fourth and the fifth largest cities in Israel (Ber Sheva and Ashdod), not a ''massacre''.
Maybe Israel has commited war crimes, but those who supported the war were not necessarely responsible for what happened on the battlefield. It's exactly like saying that all those who supported the war in Irak supported the torture of Abu Ghraib prisoners. It's just ridiculous.
Furthermore, Finkelstein says that Hezbollah is a resistance group. What are they resisting to exactly? Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon in 2000, and yet, Hezbollah never disarmed. Moreover, it is still commited to the destruction of the state of Israel on behalf of the Palestinians (in spite of the fact that the Palestinians have already recognized Israel!)
By the way, Nasrallah asked Israeli Arabs to leave Northern Israel during the 2006 war. As I said, Hezbollah asked only Israeli Arabs to go, not the Jews. According to human rights groups, Hezbollah also targeted Israeli citizens during this war. They also shelled rockets on Haifa, the third largest city in Israel which they were not able to reach when Israel was still occupying Lebanon.
Finally, I'd like to add something which might impress some Israel haters. Between 2001 untill 2005, around 2/3 of Israelis supported the Clinton parameters (which ask Israel to withdraw from 95 to 99% of the West Bank).
The Clinton parameters were by the way, the framework accepted both by the Israelis and the Palestinians in December of 2000 to reach a peace agreement.
Today, you still have more than 50% of Israelis who agree with those parameters.
As you can see, Finkelstein is not trying to understand what is happening in Israel. He just wants to make his case against Israel. He's looking for elements that would prove that Israel comes from the "boils of hell''. He's not a real scholar, he just a propagandist.
He might be well articulated, but you can't rely on him.
Rather than insulting the Israelis, maybe he should try to bring together all those who militate in favor in peace. Unfortunately, he praises Hezbollah.
He's not a moderate, he's an extremist. Norman Finkelstein is an enemy of peace and dialogue.
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Norman Finkelstein is a poor excuse for a Jew, a Human Being, and is not to be taken seriously. He is a failed professor, never had an academic paper published, and has a thing for Joan Peters, that is over the top. This film shows a very sad, pitiful man, who obviously had issues with his parents growing up, and needs a good shrink. We need to stop giving him a forum to spread his radical lies, and hate, and let him go back to Coney Island, to live, and die, alone.
Speaking of Coney Island, allow me to bring to your attention the 2008 Coney Island Mermaid Parade happening on June 21, 2008.
http://www.coneyisland.com/mermaid.shtml
I give it 2 Webbed Thumbs way up, 5 Starfishes.
http://dontquityrdayjob.wordpress.com/2007/06/25/coney-island-mermaid-parade/
Last year the celebrities holding court were Adam Savage from Mythbusters as King Neptune and Patti d'Arbanville from Rescue Me as Queen Mermaid.
http://www.newyork-visit.com/images/mermaid-parade-nyc-003.jpg
NORMAN IS AN ORIGINAL FELLOW WHO LIKES TO SAY WHAT IS IN HIS MIND AND HE SHOULD. LIFE IS SHORT AND IT IS BETTER TO SAY WHAT WE FEEL TO BE RIGHT RATHER THAN TO PLAY THE GAME. HIS FACTS ARE CHECKED AND HE IS VERY MUCH IN LINE WITH MAINSTREAM INSRAELI HISTORIANS LIKE MORRIS, BEN-AMI OR SEGEV. THE PROBLEM IS THAT HE IS WRONG IN THINKING THAT
ISRAEL SHOULD BEHAVE MORALLY DIFFERENTLY THAT AMERICANS OR ANY OTHER SATE AT ITS CREATION. STATES ARE BORN OUT OF BLOOD AND TEARS AND SORRY IF PALESTINIANS SHOULD SUFFER BUT ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO BE CREATED AND BELIEVE IN ITS ZIONIST DREAM LIKE AMERICANS BELIEVED ONCE IN THEIR MANIFEST DESTINY. IT MIGHT BE MORALLY QUESTIONABLE BUT IN REALITY JEWS ARE NOT WORSE OR BETTER THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE. WE WANT OUR STATE AND WE WILL FIGHT FOR IT. WE DON'T MAKE OMELETTES WITHOUT BREAKING EGGS..
Unlike a lot of other radical poseurs- Norman has actually altered the terms of the debate on Israel/Palestine. It used to be "cycle of violence"...now, it's all about Israel's Occupation. The jews who hate him are essentially rodefs, neurotic chain-link fence jews who interpret comments critical of Israel to be attacks on their own burping, scratching, fragile, neurotic little nerd identities. The only jews who still cling to the zionist bullshit are alta cockas and jewish boys whom jewish girls have been vomiting at the sight of since junior high. Israel advocacy is their raison d'etre. It defines them as men, or rather schleps.
Good bless Norman Finkelstein
America needs a hundred more men like him. Men of principle and learning not afraid to speak truth to power. I support him fully.
Professor Norman Finkestein is a highly respected accademic, not because of his views, but rather because of his style of precision and accuracy.
His tools are internationally undisputed, namely, International Law and mainstream human rights organizations.
What makes his strength is that he seldom expresses his own views. In most cases he cites the relevant international law.
Whoever opposes him automatically opposes the rule of law, intentionally or not.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You funny.
"What makes his strength is that he seldom expresses his own views. In most cases he cites the relevant international law"
I would be grateful for RoL if he/she were to read the interview F. gave in Lebanon and make the case that he was spreaking for international when he defended Hizzballa's aggression against Israel's northern civilians. I shall need the precise law cited, + an analysis of the situation that led to the war.
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD184808
What qualifies Allyson Taylor to decide who is a "good" Jew and who isn't? Her comments come straight from the Zionist lobby's playbook.
Very mature Allyson.
You are the disgrace. Not Norman.
I hope sensible people will watch the language being used by people like Allyson. See how they show no shame. They have no civility.
They just spew empty bullshit rhetoric. "Such and such is a self-hating Jew." "Such and such is an anti-semite." Etc etc
They never talk about the issues because they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Pay attention to them. It's not difficult to spot the vapidity of their ideas.
LSD got an "A" from norman finklestein in Brown Nosing.
LSD and the others don't address the fact that their hero "s a failed professor, never had an academic paper published".
"F" PaleSWINE. :-)
Your almost as full of shit as Joan Peters...
I think Sol said it best.
Bwahahahahahahaha
It is obvious you are brainwashed in every way. Finkelstein is one of the best political-scientists in AMerica, but because he destroys all pro-Israeli puppets in debates he is a pitiful man. He was one of DePaul's favorite teachers, but because of his destruction of Dershowitz's book, and the letter Dershowitz wrote to DePaul he lost his tenure. Also, if both sides of your family on your mom and dad's sides were all killed in the Holocaust, wouldnt there be problems in your youth. He is a brilliant man, and you Jew-supremacists who laugh at hundreds of deaths of Palestinian children are disgusting pitiful people. Israel is the terrorist state, who will not give peace to the Palestinian people, while even Hamas said it would go to peace under the 1967 UN borders. But Israel's hard-core Zionist leaders are disgusting and would rather watch the Palestinians die. You of all people are calling someone pitiful.
Smellsbridge, go read your Hamas Charter of 1988, the same year that Pan Am 103 was bombed inflight by your buddies.
Search for the part on how Hamas hates Freemasons, the Rotary and Lions clubs - just like the nazis.
Your Hamas/Islamofascists are following the third reich playbook, except, this time the Israelis are not the unarmed Jews of WW2 Europe.
"when he defended Hizzballa's aggression against Israel's northern civilians."
"Hizzballa's (sic) aggression." ?????
Did they move Beirut to Israel and then attack it? Last I remember, the bombed out buildings and dead civilians were almost entirely Lebanese.
Funny how hamas and hizbullah terrorists do not wear uniforms and how DEAD hamas and hizbullah TERRORISTS are counted as "civilians".
and it's funny how hamas and hizbullah TERRORISTS hide amoungst civilian populations, fire rockets from civilian areas.
It's ALMOST like hamas and hizbuallah WANT REAL civilians to die.
The only way there should be a ceasefire is that hamas MUST surrender unconditionally to Israel.
God Bless Norman Finkelstein.
norman finkelstein doesn't believe in God.
I think Norman Finkelstein did'nt hate Israel, he just told the truth about facts that mostly came from people and institutions inside Israel. That was happened because Israel is a democratic state and have freedom of speech, if Israel is totalitarian state like Iraq under Saddam then Norman Finkelstein wouldn't like he is today.
I am not Joan Peters
I am a Zionist
I am a Jew
I am not afraid of your stupid assinine comments
and I do believe Norman is a sick man.I am not intimidated by your verbal attacks, and this is about hatred of Jews and the democracy in Israel. God Bless Israel and the Jewish People!
This film if filth, like Norman
N. Finkelstein should be taken as an example for mankind.fighting his whole life for peace truth and justice.
he could be saying the same lies dershowitz and others say and live a good life, be fucking rich...
but he rather says the truth and gets smashed in the media....
N. Finkelstein is one of the biggest HEROS in history
Further proof of your ignorance and stupidity. How can you form an opinion on a movie before you even saw the trailer.
Allyson, dear, you add a certain flair to the term "ad hominem" attack. You manage to take the typical, predictable accusations of "self-hating Jew" and give them a more colourful setting.
The image of him alone on his deathbed, alone in his apartment, ready to face his Maker, alone, after living a lonesome and pathetic existence, and ...did I say alone?
But argument wise, you have nothing at all to say about Norman Finkelstein's academic work.
Norman Finkelstein was renowned as an excellent teacher at DePaul's, praised by students and colleagues alike.
(Look it up).
Praised by Raul Hilberg, considered to be the ultimate authority on Holocaust studies, for his book "The Holocaust Industry".
(Look it up)
Supported for his terrific scholarship by the likes of Noam Chomsky, whom, as you might have heard, is considered to be the most important intellectual of our generation, and who blurred Norman Finkeltein's excellent book "Beyond Chutzpah",
and respected by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe- who admitted that Finkelstein
tore Alan Dershowitz' credibility in the academic world to shreds in that same book; "Beyond Chutzpah".
(Look it up).
Alone he is not. And you can't stand it.
Eddie, the Nazis organised razzias and convined Jews to ghettoes- stripping them of their goods, taking their houses from them, all under the pretext that Jews were less than human and a necessary egg to break in the interest of the Aryan omelette they called Lebensraum.
I'll let you work out the obvious analogy here, for yourself.
noga: I think you'd be rather hard pressed trying to find anyone, besides yourself, who would negate a people the right to ward off foreign invasion and occupation. This widespread sentiment has it's reflection in international law, a concept which Israel has historically laughed at since it's inception in 1948.
The right to resist foreign invasion has been affirmed numerous times by a number of UN bodies, including the UN Security Council, the UN General Assembly, the UN Commission on Human Rights, the International Law Commission and the International Court of Justice .
See UN General Assembly Resolutions 37/43, 1514, 3070, 3103, 3246, 3328, 3382, 3421, 3481, 31/91, 32/42 and 32/154,
as well as CHR Resolution No. 3 XXXV, 21 February 1979 and CHR Resolution No. 1989/19, 6 March 1989.
I imagine you are intelligent and reasonable enough to admit that an invaded people exposed to ethnic cleansing would, naturally, resist by any means necessary.
I suppose you are informed enough to know all about the wall/fence, again in expansion. And the colonialist settlements that have been continously growing between 1948-early '50s, and which have been in constant, gradual, expansion since the 1967 war, even doubling and tripling during times of "peace process".
1+1=2
foreign invasion and settlements+people thrown out of their homes and treated as less than human= violent retaliation.
Igor, your critique of Norman Finkelstein is actually simultaneously the best one here and the worst.
Many countries were, indeed, founded on ethnic cleansing, even long before anyone thought up the term "ethnic cleansing".
America was indeed founded by ethnically cleansing the native population.
As was Australia. As is Israel.
So, you say, if it was right for the Boers South Africa or the England's Australia, or Europe's America, why isn't it right for the European/Russian Israel?
Here's the point you try to rationalise away.
It wasn't right then, and is not right now.
Genocide and ethnic cleansing are deplorable acts of inhumanity.
The very worst crimes humankind is capable of. Erasing an entire people.
Who is to say, that in order for Jews to live at peace in a land of their own, it is absolutely necessary for that land to be not only of their own, but ONLY for their own?
Why not live together with an Arab population?
Why insist on kicking them out?
Why insist on terrorising it's neighbours?
Even David Ben-Ghurion himself vehemently opposed Israel staying in the territories it conquered in 1967. He argued it was hard enough to ethnically cleanse Israel, why conquer more land with more Arabs on it to cleanse?
It is clearly not a matter of having the right to land and peace- it is a matter of having someone else's land, not once, in an operation that ended in 1948-
not even with an operation which ended in 1967-
but an ongoing agenda of colonialist expansion.
Israel wants to continue to spread, like a cancer.
The State of Israel has adapted a policy of ethnic cleansing towards Palestinians since 1948.
As you well know,as many reputable historian like Benny Morris, Shlomo Ben-ami, and so on, have proven.
The sad part is that 61 years later, Israelis seem to think that that Zionist policy of ethnic cleansing was not the CAUSE of the hostilities with Palestinians and the Arab world, but rather the only viable way to protect the Jewish state, DESPITE the hostilities.
One doesn't need to be a historian to see the fallacy in that logic.
Mae, your entire argument is based on falsehoods.
You are looking backwards in time from a situation that resulted from violent attacks on Jewish people - many of them indogenes who'd lived in Hebron for example for thousands of years - and also at literally thousands of years of victimization - and blaming them on the Jews who were (and continue to be) targeted.
Similarly using words like "genocide" and "apartheid" when these along with ghettos and religiously or legally mandated second-class (at best) and precarious existence of JEWISH people (and other minorities) throughout the Middle East, culminating in pogroms and their near-total evacuation from Arab lands after WWII, is upside down, backwards, prejudicial and absurd.
It's also a form of projection: accusing Israel of crimes that are actually committed by other nations.
Finally I am tired of hearing that people have a right to be violent, "resistance" or no "resistance". Instead of trying to justify the violence how about looking at the violence itself as the primary cause of - the violence?
Instead of trying to justify violence we should try looking at the violence that not only targeted Jews in the Yishuv but daily claims lives throughout the MENA.
This includes "honor" killings, political warfare, religious warfare, clan warfare - suicide bombings - mosque bombings - attacks on police - attacks on markets - widespread terror - indeed entire peoples have been attacked and killed by the millions just since 1900 - religious minorities, ethnic minorities in particular - and of course women.
So instead of focusing on the Arab-Israeli conflict and blaming the Jews for all this trouble try looking at the tens of millions of people who have died just since WWII - often in civil wars throughout the region.
And try looking at the real civil and human rights situation throughout this area as well. Isn't it possible that the Arab/Israeli conflict is a symptom rather than the disease?
There IS apartheid in the Middle East but it isn't in Israel, which is hardly a religious or ethnic monolith as you propose. You are making a false claim and falsely accuse Israel of not wanting its Arab citizens, or of desiring to expel them, which is simply untrue.
It is true there are SOME extremists in Israel and there are bigoted Jews. This is not however a large percentage of people, it is not Zionist or Israeli government philosophy - I do agree however that these people exist and they upset me too but to jump from that to a claim that Israel is either an apartheid state or "genocidal" in intent or at its base is an egregious falsehood and a libel.
However, it IS a capital crime to sell land to Jews in the P.A.
Norman is a great scholar. Each time I read his work I become more motivated to do my own research.
i have yet to see norman finklestein lose a debate, he is armed with facts and cannot be beaten. i feel like crying when i see how he has treated and branded a self-hating jew. this man has the courage to speak the truth, i hope one day i can be half the man he is.
Alan Dershowitz SOUNDLY beat norman finkelstein on the ironicly named socialist, progressively mentally ill "demoncracy now".
I got a great kick out of it.
john, you can always be half the wit of norman.
If incinerating 400 Palestinian Children (Darkies) is morally justafiable to Israel....Why didn't they allow journalists to go into Gaza to see the Hamas "terrorists"?
To protect the lives of journailists? Hardly.
Or so they don't see what White Phosporous burning human beings, children, down to their bones. It's a horrible, horrible, way to die.
Why not complete the historical irony and start using Zyklon B in Gaza.
What's the difference between a wild eyed Zionist and a Nazi?
Here's your answer, "kaiser".
From an Arab newspaper no less:
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/07/a-word-for-israel-in-the-arab-press/index.shtm
kaiser Dumbkopf,
Why do you call paleSWINIANS (Darkies)? You must have learned that from your racist Janjaweed imams running the current day slave auctions in Darfur.
You asked "What's the difference between a wild eyed Zionist and a Nazi?"
Simple. The same as the difference between an American/Brit and your fellow nazi vermin.
Todays islamofascists follow the nazi playbook with the big NAKBA that the Israelis are NOT the unamred Jews of WW2 europe.
Dear Eddie
No one has a monopoly on bigotry. Neither Arabs or Americans or Europeans or, dare I say it.... Israelis; Even you.
But if your idea of JUSTICE is to relive some fantasy of fighting off the Nazis instead of being put to death like some meek lamb...be my guest. I'd also suggest you seek psychiatic help.
I think psychologists call this "Transferance". Or is it Projection?
Either way, killing 400 children who happen to be the wrong color, with such impunity and then to say this whole Israeli engineered operation (On the day of US presidential elections) started by those "dirty stinking Palestinians", is a level of cynicism I've rarely witnessed.
And then the nerve to pass this off as self defence when Israel refused to remove the blockade for food, medicene and fuel, as per agreed in the June Ceasefire of 2008.
Let's say you are right for argument's sake: Why did the Israeli Army stop Journalists going into Gaza? See what I mean?
I may be Dumbkopf, heaven knows I've been called worse things, but I suggest you do get psychiatric help, For your own sake.
Kaiser,
Your own afflictions involve stupefying ignorance, self-righteous arrogations, an elaborate use of picknose sneers and auto-cranial-posterior displacement syndrome. Though that's far from an exhaustive list.
As to correcting your ignorance, the lone quality you bring to bear that can be approached on more rational and cogent grounds, NGO Monitor has commentary on HRW's and AI's own recent anti-Israel reports and is in the process of producing still lengthier reports on the subject. That assumes your information comes from HRW or AI, at least in terms of the ultimate basis of your ignorance, but that's where the proponderance of the specious, anti-Israel reports are originating from. Excerpt:
"... allegations of civilian deaths and claims regarding the military context rest on Palestinian statements and ideology. Marc Garlasco, the main author and HRW’s “military expert,” has a history of making such pseudo technical allegations that lack evidence and simply repeat Palestinian claims, as in the 2006 “Gaza Beach” incident, and regarding IDF actions in the 2006 Lebanon War.
"Similarly, Amnesty International published a report entitled Operation ‘Cast Lead’: 22 Days of Death and Destruction (July 2, 2009), charging Israel with “war crimes” during the conflict. As in the case of the HRW pseudo-report, the prejudicial and tenuous 127-page publication ignores considerable evidence that Hamas used human shields, minimizes Palestinian violations of international law, and promotes boycotts and “lawfare” against Israel. The only mention of kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit was in a footnote, underlining Amnesty’s double standards in the application of human rights norms. (NGO Monitor is in the process of preparing detailed analyses of HRW’s and Amnesty’s claims.)"
The CounterTerrorism Blog's commentary on Israel-Hamas also remains relevant. I won't excerpt anything, but they have several reports on the January conflict and it's a solid, well researched and well argued resource in general.
Michael B
Excuse me! Despite what you are assuming that I am some pesudo intellectual Israeli basher, nothing could be further from the truth. But please feel free to exhaust the expletives. I always enjoy listening to trite Pseudo Liberal Fascists.
Now if the HRW and UNHCR reports are so bogus and Anti-Semitic, as you are insinuating; if Amnesty are such Jew haters, and B'Tselem are Self hating Jews....Why is it only your assertion we are hearing?
Or should I take into account your superior tone? Does that Sanctify the bloodlust and duplicitous nature of Israeli politics?
The figures and historical evidence makes a lie of your bloviating apologtics for Israeli Fascism.
Basiclly anyone who disagrees with you is a Self hating Jew or Anti Semitic? Your big lie is just that. One look at the pictures of the Dead Children and you will see what happened. Or have you the GUTS to look on all those dead children?
The irony is there are many Israeli and Jewish peace activists throughout the world. They just don't get the air time on TV as they don't jibe with the policies of Israeli High Command.
Look at the pictures of those 400 Palestinian children (killed by the IDF, not some phantom hamas human shield); look at them, then come back and hurl your vacuous insults.
But if the wanton killing of Palestinian children is a godley thing for you....then you are beyond the pale. You have become the very image of those who sought to destroy Jews.
You're an anonymity who prudently chooses to remain anonymous, you're a picknose hack whose commentary reflects the mental landscape of a middle-schooler and which content reflects question begging presumption and rank ignorance. That's why I provided an extended excerpt and two links to better inform the subject in question and to reflect upon your moralistic bravado and triumphalism.
Likewise again, I never considered raising you to the level of "pseudo-intellectual."
kaisar Dumbkopf,
You TRULY are a Dumbkopf. Let me explain.
When a willfully blind, progressively blind Dumbkopf such as yourself lay all blame on Zionists, JOOZ, while you ignore the World-Wide islamist jihad that goes on virtually everyday, ALL OVER THE WORLD, I must wonder why.
- 9/11
- Londons 7/7/05 bus and underground bombings
- Muslim doctors SUV attack on Glasgow airport
- Madrids 3/11 bombings
- Mumbai India massacre
- bombing of Pan Am 103
- FAILED sneaker bomber convert to Islam richard reid
- Beslan school massacre
- Muslim War criminal saddam husseins use of WMD (poison gas) on the Kurds of Halabja (5,000 died)
- Death fatwa on Salman Rushdie for writing a book of fiction
- Honor Killings/Rapes
- Brainwashing of paleswinian children in school and kiddie shows, to become Shaeeds (die attacking Infidels)
- Bombing USS Cole
- bombing 2 US embassies in Africa (disregarding the safety of local population)
- plotting to attack Fort Dix
- VIDEO TAPING AND BEHEADING INFIDELS (like Journalist Daniel Pearl)
- Declaring intention to "wipe Israel off the map" while working day and night in underground nuclear weapons production facilities as the president of the ISLAMOFASCIST REGIME OF iran does
- the torture and eventual execution of the Jewish man in France by Muslims
- Taliban fighters, men, hiding in BURQAS to elude capture
- Kuwait kicked out it's paleswinians due to their support of saddam hussein - even Muslims don't like fifth columnists
- the kicking out of 700,000+ Jews from Arab countries in 1948
kaiser Dumbkopf, try reading the hamass charter of 1988 - or at least get the pdf of the charter and "FIND" the words "freemasons", "lions", "rotary" and see that islamofascist hamass, like the nazis, HATE Freemasons too.
Again, WHY are you so willfully, progressively BLIND?
Michael B
Now that I've been put in my place, maybe you can explain why you would only choose reports which agree with you.
Would these reports have Mossad origins?
Since I am assuming much, may I, at the least, presume you have no problems with killing 400 Palestinian children with White Phospherous bombs?
I will take it you have no problem with infanticide since you refuse to address this.
As for my remaining Anonymous: What do you want? My address and social security number so you can send a Mossad death Squad?
Please by all means publish your details. We dont want anyone accusing you of being anonymous.
Eddie
Your crass tantrums aside, did I say Arabs are saints? Or that Islamists are saintly?
Stupidity and ignorance and desperation knows no national boundry, or religious creed or race.
Starving the people in Gaza is going to test anyone's patience.
As for world wide Islamo Fascism...well that has it's origins in the arming and training of the Afghan Tribes and Arabs during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Funded by the CIA and called Operation Cyclone.
Unfortunately someone forgot to tell Bin Laden Operation Cyclone had ended. If you are going to create this Frankenstein or Golem, then don't be surprised if it eventually turns on you.
There is also, historically, the policy of America funding dictatorships in the Middle East. That is going to cause resentment and radicalization of the suppressed population.
So to answer you, I'm not blind to any side.
kaiser Dumbkopf,
Your best defense for your blindspot of World-Wide islamofascist atrocities is that you never called islamofascists "saints"? LOL!
Can you direct us to any post of yours where you rail over islamofascist atrocities committed anywhere in the World - just to prove you are "unbiased", "evenhanded"?
Are you one of those people who cry "disproportionate response"?
If proportionality is important to you, since islamofascism is behind most terrorist acts today, you should have a proportionate number of posts on many blogs/websites decrying islamofascism. AND proportionately you would have posted MORE anti-islamofascist screeds than anti-Zionist screeds. Do you?
Where are the starving people in Gaza? Is the hamass leadership starving? Any pictures of emaciated palestinians?
Where is Suha Arafat, former First Lady of palestine? Does she live in palestine with her people, or elsewhere? How much of a pension does Suha get from being the wife of yassir arafat?
When THE WALL, erected by EGYPT at the SOUTHERN border of Gaza was pierced, why were motorcycles brought in? Can gazans EAT motorcycles?
Why did hamass use ambulances to ferry fighters and weapons, use schools as firing positions, use mosques as weapons caches?
Why does saudi arabia have Muslims-Only Cities (Mecca for example)?
Why does saudi arabia fund the construction of mosques in the Infidel parts of the World, yet PROHIBIT the construction of any NON-MUSLIM house of worship anywhere in SA?
Clearly there is a segment of the Persian people who want to throw off the yoke of the islamofascist theocratic gang who have set back Iran several hundred years. I wish the anti-islamofascist regime protesters success.
Do you?
Eddie
I do support them.
Iran had one Thug replaced by another.
Why wouldn't I support people to lead free lives?
As for Islamo Fascists: You have backward idiots in all walks of lives. (Including the Settlers on the West Bank.) As for Family dictatorship in Saudi Arabia, the originator for most of the 9-11 hijackers, they are backed to the hilt by the US government.
As for Gaza, it's nothing more than an open air prison: Blockading it from land sea and air is only going to radicalize the population. Also no thanks to that other family dictatorship in Egypt. You won't agree with me but it was Israel which broke the 6 month ceasefire.
I won't go into the Orwellian lies of Israel.
There's plenty of blame to go around. Even the Bush family have Bin Ladens as business partners.
Aside from your initiating these petty insults, I don't know where you get the idea I was defending Radical nuts in Islam....just because I mourn the loss of 400 Palestinian children at the hands of Zionist Israel?
kaiser Dumbkopf,
> I do support them.
Who? The protesters or the islamofascist regime who you give scant reproach?
> Iran had one Thug replaced by another.
> Why wouldn't I support people to lead free lives?
Because it's counter-revolutionary? Reactionary? Why do you turn a blind eye to islamofascist thuggery? To avoid being labeled a "Zionist" as the hamass charter labels Freemasons, Lions and Rotarians?
Are there backwards idiots in hamass, muslim brotherhood, wahabbists, progressives, socialists, NGOs?
As for 9/11, do you believe that some of the islamofascist individuals identified as the 9/11 hijackers, are any of them STILL ALIVE?
Q. What kind of an "open-air prison" fires 8,000 rockets, has a TV station broadcasting racist "religious" sermons, kiddie shows, has elections that install racist thugs as a leadership?
A. hamasstan, gaza.
Will you go into the Orwellian lies of the left, of progressives, of socialists, of islamofascists? That would be interesting.
After 9/11 the US should have kept the bin laden family in Guantanamo until the Saudis turned over OBL to the US.
kaiser Dumbkopf, you commit Sins of Omission when you IGNORE islamofascist atrocities committed all over the World.
You seem to have no problem with the subjugation of women in islamic republics (Pakistan, Islamofascist iran, Saudi Arabia (women can't drive cars, must walk behind men, can be executed on the word of a spurned suitor).
Why is that?
What uniform do hamass fighters wear to distinguish themselves from REAL civilians? You do know that hamass and hezbullah fighters wear CIVILIAN clothing AND the taliban were wearing BURQAS in Afghanistan to elude capture???
Kaiser, you're the one who "initiated" the insults, so you can't even get the simplest, the most mundane of facts correct.
As to anonymity, it's the combination of anonymity and your picknose sneers and your presumption and arrogations in general - that's the issue that was being hi-lighted. If you're going to forward grade-school level arrogations that you fail to substantiate, you're expecting others to play by Marquess of Queensberry rules? Nice work, if you can get it.
Further, via a couple of links and the earlier excerpt, I did respond, if in general terms. But here's a more specific link still, excerpt of the summary follows:
+ On March 26, 2009, Human Rights Watch (HRW) issued a 71-page report headlined "Rain of Fire: Israel's Unlawful Use of White Phosphorous in Gaza." As in HRW's other statements on Gaza, this report reflects a manipulation of "evidence" and lack of professionalism to support pre-determined political and ideological positions.
+ NGO Monitor's analysis of "Rain of Fire" highlights: 1) reliance on unverifiable and highly questionable evidence; 2) political and ideological biases of the authors, which would explain manipulation of the evidence; and 3) dubious interpretations of international law. These continue a well-established pattern of false claims and a biased agenda in HRW publications regarding Israel.
+ The entirely disproportionate attention given to this narrow aspect of this conflict erases the wider context of aggression and response. The charges of "war crimes" are unjustified, and reflect HRW's role in the wider Durban strategy of demonization.
+ The lack of credibility results from reliance on unreliable and tampered evidence; false and inaccurate claims; and internal contradictions. One section of the report claims that the IDF targeted civilian areas with white phosphorous, but other sections admit that the "researchers were unable to determine precisely where the white phosphorous landed and what effect it had on the civilian population."
+ The authors of "Rain of Fire" include Marc Garlasco, whose previous work for HRW has exhibited factual inaccuracies and significant flaws in methodology; Fares Akram, a Palestinian whose father was killed during the fighting; and Darryl Li, a pro-Palestinian activist who has worked at the highly politicized Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR).
+ The authors substitute their limited military expertise and knowledge for the experience of the IDF commanders. Thus, HRW extends its claim of credibility far beyond the realm of human rights.
Big Ed
Apart from Hamas, The Mossad wear civilian clothes; the CIA do and so do FBI and MI6.
Even the special forces guarding General Dostum work Afghan garb.
I don't omit thugs from the Islamic world. you just want me to scream like a hysterical school girl at radicals on one side.
As for women being forced to wear modest clothing (Burkas), one thing you don't consider is that these are culturally conservative cultures. Secondly, if you have ever been to a muslim culture you will notice something peculiar about a large Minority of Men: They lear at women in an disconcerting way. Hence why many women protect themselves from harrasment.
As for me deliberately omitting...Have you condemed Israel for its war crimes? No of course not. You just want me to dance to your tune. You have no intention of holding Israel to account for its Murder Policies.
> Apart from Hamas, The Mossad wear civilian clothes; the CIA do and so do FBI and MI6.
Even the special forces guarding General Dostum work Afghan garb.
What uniform do the Afghan Taliban wear to distinguish themselves from REAL civilians BEFORE the Taliban men don Burqas to pose as females???
What happens to Mossad, CIA, agents if they fall into the hands of islamofascists?
Is it OK to treat hamass operatives as islamofascists treat Mossad, CIA operatives?
> I don't omit thugs from the Islamic world. you just want me to scream like a hysterical school girl at radicals on one side.
You DO scream like a hysterical school girl when it comes to Israel, so why do you object to screaming against islamofascists, al qada, taliban, islamofascist regimes?
> As for women being forced to wear modest clothing (Burkas), one thing you don't consider is that these are culturally conservative cultures. Secondly, if you have ever been to a muslim culture you will notice something peculiar about a large Minority of Men: They lear at women in an disconcerting way. Hence why many women protect themselves from harrasment.
You are saying that Muslim men are less able than Western men to control their impulses?
There are groups that value conservative mores in the US - Mormons, evangelicals. Are as non-judgemental towards Western social conservatives?
> As for me deliberately omitting...Have you condemed Israel for its war crimes? No of course not. You just want me to dance to your tune. You have no intention of holding Israel to account for its Murder Policies.
I want you to condemn Islamofascism for WAR CRIMES (using human shields), using civilian homes as firing positions, for the islamofascist atrocities I listed above - the 9/11 sneak attacks, London bombings, Madrid, Bali, Mumbai, Pan Am 103, Halabja, honor killings.
For some reasons I expect you to continue defending islamofascism, islamofacist racism, islamofascist war crimes at any cost.
You are a total MORON Eddie
Unless I agree that Israel farts Tiffany cufflinks and "Islamo Fascists" torture MOSSAD and CIA agents then I must be part of the Islamo Fascists?
In case it escaped your pea sized brain, Afghanistan is not Bel Air. It is a harsh enviroment which is reflected in the character of the people. But I'm wasting my breath. You are not listening.
Utter waste of my time debating anything with an autistic fool like you.
Dont bother replying becasue I wont be arguing any point with you. Jerk.
kaiser Dumbkopf,
> "Israel farts Tiffany cufflinks"
Wow! What a vivid imagination! I see you didn't heed the warnings about the brown acid.
Your hasty retreat brings joy to me.
May you and your friends continue to experience the NAKBA of failure and defeat. INSHALLAH!
Kindergarten Kaiser KO'd.
Get a life and Grow Up, both of you.
The pair of you sound like you're old enough to know better.
K, Stop smoking that funny stuff in your hooka - it's affected your ability to think clearly.
Eddie
If my clarity of thought is affected by smoking a "hooka", the next day at least I'll be sober, but tomorrow you'll still be stupid.
Kaiser, If my NOT buying into your norman finkelstein cult makes me stupid in your brain-damaged mind, so be it.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT FACTUALLY NORMAN MIGHT BE RIGHT
BUT HE DENIES THE REALITY OF THE CREATION OF ANY MODERN STATE.
WE ARE ALL BORN OUT OF SINS APART FROM JESUS AND THAT IS VALID FOR MOST STATES...
IT IS ABOUT SURVIVAL AND LAND AND ECONOMIC REALITY AND
THE SPACE IS SO DRY AND SMALL....
THE ISRAELIS KNOW MOST OF THEM THAT THE SITUATION IS
DREADFUL FOR PALESTINIANS BUT WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS TO FEED, YOU NEED LAND AND RESOURCES...IT IS AS EASY AS THAT.
IT IS ALL ABOUT SURVIVAL AND AS LONG AS THE ISRAELIS HAVE
WEAPONS AND THE SUPPORT OF EUROPE AND THE US THEY WILL
KEEP ACTING LIKE THEY DO...AND FUCK INTERNATIONAL LAW..
ANY STATE WOULD DO THE SAME...
IS THAT RIGHT NO BUT IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE GIVEN THE
SAD HISTORY JEWS HAVE WITHT HE HOLOCAUST THE ARABS
ATTACKING THEM TWICE ETC.....
NORMAN IS AN IDEALIST..HE HAS NO KIDS TO FEED..HE THINKS LIKE A CHILD DREAMING OF A PERFECT WORLD...THAT IS BEAUTIFUL BUT IT IS ALSO WRONG..
norman finkelshit is NO IDEALIST. He is a text book example of a self-hating jew, who sides with the enemies of Jews - like bobby fischer.
Read up on "Stockholm Syndrome" and "Uncle Tom".
Dude, what are u talking about? That state was given birth officially over 60 years ago. Apartheid or the illegal settlements have nothing to do with creating a state but everything to do with corruption, violation of human rights etc.. All that stuff people dont wanna hear about. The problem with most zionists is that they use the founding of America as an excuse for their own illegitimate policies in Palestine. Policies which are not supported by any other significant country than the U.S. and which are against her own Declaration of Independence not to mention the international law.
To Rowen Taylor,
Talk about dying and living alone. Pretty thick. Why is it that Norman Finkelstein, as a jew, is somehow pathetic or sad character when he speaks for *universal* rights and not the rights of jews with expense of others. Are we to conclude that Germans who disagreed and criticized their leader before WWII like Carl Jung, or the russians who protested against Stalin for example were sad characters as well? What is so sad about Mr. Finkelstein having the courage, decency or what have you to speak out what most of us dont? His uncompromising integrity?
Norman Finkelstein is more respected and has more "academic crebility" than any other Hollywood lawyer outside the US and what comes down to him as an academic he is in a league of his own. The fact that you make incorrect statements about his career in public website, that he never had an academic paper published doesn't surprise me as I am only left to conclude that you got that piece of information from that same place where you get the rest of your information concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. You should double check your sources before making such a silly statement. Theres not many who can even approach his level, not to mention refute him. His facts are ALWAYS straight and untempered with which cant be said for the simple and pathetic excuses of minds like Dershowitz, Joan Peters and my personal favorite Mark Twain. I mean Mark Twain for gods sake. Wasn't he a story teller of some sort?
i was positively surprised by this film when i saw it in boston.
i expected a film much more positive on finkelstein but
i think it is a really balance film and it is finally much more
about the traumatic effect of the holocaust on jews than about the ip conflict.
Eddie,
Since you are such an expert on N. Finkelstein, why don't you go ahead and post the three biggest blatant lies that he has written or said so that all those reading your opinion will know that it wasn't pulled straight out of your ass...
Your silence is DEAFENING you pathetic ass clown...
You gotta be kidding. This is straight from his book:
"Jewish elites in the United States have enjoyed enormous prosperity. From this combination of economic and political power has sprung, unsurprisingly, a mindset of Jewish superiority. Wrapping themselves in the mantle of The Holocaust, these Jewish elites pretend—and, in their own solipsistic universe, perhaps imagine themselves—to be victims, dismissing any and all criticism as manifestations of “anti-Semitism.” And, from this lethal brew of formidable power, chauvinistic arrogance, feigned (or imagined) victimhood, and Holocaust-immunity to criticism has sprung a terrifying recklessness and ruthlessness on the part of American Jewish elites. Alongside Israel, they are the main formentors of anti-Semitism in the world today. Coddling them is not the answer. They need to be stopped."
Scholarship this isn't. It's more like ranting.
Worse, Finkelstein buys into some of the worst antisemitic memes - then blames the victims. He claims that antisemitism itself is actually a political tool of the Jews!
That's outrageous.
It's no surprise to me that he didn't get tenure at Depaul.
As pointed out in the linked article some of Norman Finkelstein's best friends are - neonazis.
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=7070
So give us a break.
unfortuNATE,
Exposing the Lies of norman finkelstein.
http://www.bluetruth.net/2007/03/exposing-lies-of-norman-finkelstein.html
"Norman Finkelstein's Fraudulent Scholarship"
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=169&x_article=985
Norman Finkelstein: An Obsessive Anti-Zionist Shows his Stripes
http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Holocaust/20051031-JewishStandard.htm
AND it's VERY INTERESTING that norman finkelstein is championed by david duke, jeff rense.
Over to you LOOOOOOZER.
P.S. unfortuNATE, In the coming holiday season, I wish you and your family continued and eternal NAKBA.
Sophia and Eddie,
I made a simple request which should not be too difficult for you to comply with considering the amount of published material available for you to cull. I just ask for your most heavy ammunition—your big guns. There must be hundreds if not thousands of examples based on your over the top rhetoric of the “self hating Jew” Finkelstein. Please, do not provide links with written rebuttals to an “abridged transcript”, or articles dissecting superfluous minutiae. I want the prime examples which undermine the scholarly integrity of Finkelstein as well as his propositions.
If you feel that the links that you referred to contain these prime examples (lmao) please site which three they are so that all perspective readers here may be persuaded to your point of view. I briefly scanned each link provided and saw nothing that would rise to the level of the over the top rhetoric which each of you have employed. On the contrary, like your diatribes, the links provided seemed to be devoid of substance and replete with over the top assertion, opinion, and rhetoric.
It should be telling to all open minded observers perusing this site that when asked, Finkelstein's detractors are not capable of articulating a coherent logical critique of his scholarship or his honesty.
Sheese. Give us some time already before assuming we don't have any (more) "big guns". I'm not sure however how much time I want to devote to wallowing in Finkelstein's turgid prose just to prove a point.
For now: Exhibit One is DePaul University's refusal to offer him tenure. That speaks to his own university's determination that his scholarship is suspect.
Beyond that if you can't read what we've posted here, if you cannot read Finklestein's own words and see in them a highly prejudiced point of view that is really offering opinion, not fact, then I think your mind is already made up.
I'm sorry for you Sophia if you believe that referring to Finkelstein's denial of tenure at DePaul is tantamount to articulating a coherent logical critique of his scholarship or honesty. But, it is telling to all open minded observers.
Perhaps what you need is a demonstration of a coherent logical critique of one's honesty. Observe:
When Dershowitz learned that Beyond Chutzpa would be published by University of California Press, he launched a campaign to block its publication. After his campaign was unsuccessful, he claimed that no such campaign ever existed. Unfortunately for the integrity and honesty of "the Dersh", a man named Shankar Ramamoorthy obtained much of his correspondence via a California Public Records Act (CPRA) request to the University of California Press. The link below documents nearly 30 emails sent between April 2004 and September 2005 on behalf of Dersh attempting to bully the UC Press into blocking publication.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/in-praise-of-smoking-guns-the-dershowitz-file/
Now, here is the link where the Dersh states "As the UCP and Finkelstein well know, I have never tried to prevent Finkelstein’s book from being published. Indeed, I await its publication and its inevitable devastation in the marketplace of ideas."
http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/dershowitz/statement.html
You see how that works sophia? Coherent, logical?
Now you try...
Your silence remains DEAFENING!
Sophia and Eddie,
I don’t think you two are actually informed regarding Finkelstein and his views and I would bet my last shekel that neither of you have read any of his books. You seem incapable of mounting a coherent logical critique of the scholarship or honesty of Norman Finkelstein. You employ over the top rhetoric but you demonstrate negligible substance. You refer your audience to laughable sources such as CAMERA, FRONT PAGE MAG, and the ADL. Finkelstein supporters on the other hand enjoy the company of preeminent scholars such as Hillberg and Chomsky. If you were honest, you would own up to being rabid Zionists reflexively attacking any and all who are critical of the racist state of Israel. Readers of these posts will undoubtedly draw their own conclusions.
While I wait, I will offer the courtesy of providing another example of a substantive critique of academic integrity. Again I will use Alan Dershowitz as the model for dishonesty and inappropriate scholarship. In the book Beyond Chutzpa (the one we previously established the Dersh first tried to suppress then denied trying to suppress) Finkelstein accurately quotes Dersh from a 3-11-2002 column in the Jerusalem Post as follows:
The Dersh “advocates not only individual house demolitions but also “”the destruction of a small village which has been used as a base for terrorist operations”” after each Palestinian attack. ““The response will be automatic.”” Such massive destruction, he concludes, will further the ““noble causes”” of reducing terrorism and promoting peace. . . . It is hard to make out any difference between the policy Dershowitz advocates and the Nazi destruction of Lidice [a Czech village destroyed by the Nazis in retaliation for the assassination of a Nazi officer], for which he e expresses abhorrence—except that Jews, not Germans, would be implementing it.”
Now Finkelstein has just pointed out the hypocrisy and immorality that comes natural to the douche Dershowitz. If the Dersh had a shred of academic integrity he would either cling to his statement or he would repudiate it. So what does the slimy weasel do? He claims he was misquoted by Finkelstein and offers his version of the actual quote:
Finkelstein’s “oft-maid [sic] claim, found on page 176 of Beyond Chutzpah, that “”It is hard to make out any difference between the policy Dershowitz advocates and the Nazi destruction of Lidice, for which he expresses abhorrence—except that Jews, not Germans, would be implementing it.”” The trouble is that the policy and passage Finkelstein quotes actually says, “”[Israel] would then publicly declare precisely how it will respond in the event of another terrorist act, such as by destroying empty houses in a particular village that has been used as a base for terrorists, and naming that village in advance.”” In Finkelstein’s world, “”destroying empty houses”” in order to deter terrorism is the equivalent of genocide.”
Unfortunately for the dishonest “scholar” Dershowitz, the quotation concerning “destroying empty houses,” comes from his book Why Terrorism Works and does not appear in his Jerusalem Post column which was accurately quoted by Finkelstein.
Therefore, we see once again how one may employ coherent logic in order to critique another's lack of honesty and academic integrity.
Please, by all means if you are able to make similar critiques of Norman Finkelstein, we are all ears.
My God, where do all these horrible people come from who are praising Norman Finkelstein? Not that the writer who keeps saying "Paleswine" isn't an embarrassment too. What happened, Solomon? Was there a link here from a far-left website?
Just one more before bedtime.
It is no wonder that Dershowitz tried everything within his power (including lobbying governor Schwarzenegger) to stop the publication of Beyond Chutzpah. In Beyond Chutzpah, Finkelstein meticulously documents how Dershowitz plagiarized from a previously debunked book written by Joan Peters. For instance, both Peters and Dershowitz claim a work by Mark Twain, “The Innocents Abroad” to be their source for many of the same direct quotes. Unfortunately for the plagiarist Dershowitz, he reproduced numerous errors from Peter’s book suggesting conclusively that it was actually Peter’s book and not Twain that he copied. The reproduced errors are as follows:
1. Line 1: The original Twain (p. 485) says “this valley[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz change “this” to “the” but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
2. Line 4: In the original Twain (p. 485), there are commas before and after the word “hereabouts[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the commas but fail to signal the omission (e.g., by using empty brackets).
3. Line 5: In the original Twain (p. 508), the words “Come to Galilee for that” form an entire sentence, ending with a period. Both Peters and Dershowitz follow the word “that” with an ellipsis that is not preceded by a concluding period, but they fail to signal the omission of the period (e.g., by using empty brackets). This cannot be attributed to a stylistic choice to omit the concluding period when a complete sentence is followed by an ellipsis, because on several occasions (e.g., lines 9, 10, and 11) both Peters and Dershowitz include concluding periods followed by ellipses.
4. Line 8: In the original Twain (p. 508), the word “Capernaum” is followed by a semicolon. Both Peters and Dershowitz follow it with a colon but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
5. Line 9: The original Twain (p. 508) says “six funereal plumes of palms[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz say “six funereal palms[,]” omitting the words “plumes of” but failing to signal the omission.
6. Line 9: In the original Twain (p. 508), the word “palms” is followed by a semicolon and thus does not conclude the sentence. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the semicolon and the remainder of the sentence but place the ellipsis after the concluding period instead of before it.
7. Line 9: In the original Twain (pp. 508, 520), the sentence containing the phrase “six funereal plumes of palms” and the sentence beginning “We reached Tabor” are separated by 12 pages and numerous intervening paragraphs. Both Peters and Dershowitz separate those sentences by a single ellipsis and no paragraph break, thus representing that the sentences are part of a single paragraph. This cannot be attributed to a stylistic choice to omit all paragraph structure from the quote, because Peters and Dershowitz did not omit all paragraph structure—they include a paragraph break at lines 10 to 11.
8. Line 10: In the original Twain (p. 520), the words “We reached Tabor safely” are followed by a comma and thus are not an entire sentence. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma and the remainder of the sentence but place the ellipsis after the concluding period instead of before it.
9. Line 10: In the original Twain (p. 520), the words “We never saw a human being on the whole route” are followed by a comma and thus are not an entire sentence. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma and the remainder of the sentence but follow the word “route” with a period and no ellipsis, either before or after the period.
10. Lines 10-11: In the original Twain (pp. 520, 607), the sentence containing the phrase “never saw a human being on the whole route” and the sentence beginning “Nazareth is forlorn” are separated by 87 pages and numerous intervening paragraphs, and “Nazareth is forlorn” occurs in the middle of a paragraph, not at the beginning. Both Peters and Dershowitz separate those sentences with a single paragraph break and no ellipses, representing them as the end and beginning of consecutive paragraphs.
11. Line 11: In the original Twain (p. 607), the words “Nazareth is forlorn” are followed by a semicolon. Both Peters and Dershowitz change the semicolon to a period but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
12. Line 11: In the original Twain (p. 607), the word “accursed” is followed by a comma. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma but fail to signal the omission.
13. Line 11: In the original Twain (p. 607), the word “ruin” is followed by a comma. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma but fail to signal the omission.
14. Line 12: The original Twain (p. 607) says “to-day,” but both Peters and Dershowitz omit the hyphen. (In the original Twain, the hyphen is not merely breaking the word at the end of a line of text; the word appears in the middle of a line.)
15. Line 15: The original Twain (p. 607) says “Saviour’s[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the letter “u” but fail to signal the omission.
16. Lines 16-17: In the original Twain (p. 607), no punctuation follows the word “sang[,]” and there are no quotation marks around the phrase “Peace on earth, good will to men[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz follow “sang” with a comma and place quotation marks before “Peace” and after “men” but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
17. Line 17: In the original Twain (p. 607), the words “living creature” are followed by a comma and thus do not end the sentence in which they appear. Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the comma and the remainder of the sentence but place the ellipsis after the concluding period instead of before it.
18. Line 18: The original Twain (p. 608) says “Chorazin[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the letter “a,” spelling the word “Chorzin[,]” but fail to signal the omission.
19. Line 19: In the original Twain (p. 608), no punctuation follows the word “them[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz erroneously follow “them” with a comma but fail to signal that they have altered the original.
20. Line 20: The original Twain (p. 608) says “Saviour’s[.]” Both Peters and Dershowitz omit the letter “u” but fail to signal the omission.
At best, this is the piss poor scholarship that rabid Zionists like Sophia and Eddie reflexively attribute to Norman Finkelstein. Unfortunately for them, their erroneous assertions ring hollow as there is no substance to support their claims.
Sophia and Eddie, your inability to articulate a coherent logical critique of Norman Finkelstein’s honesty or scholarly integrity brings joy to me. INSHALLAH!
No particular link, Joanne. Once in awhile someone comes along and thinks that they are the ONE who will come up with something to finally clear the name of the unfairly persecuted Finkelstein, and that it's all our responsibility to spend time dealing with them, at length...again, as though anyone here owes anything to some guy named "nate" who stumbles in off the street. The fact is, Sophia's quote in #61 demonstrates that Finkelstein is a simple and recognizable anti-Semite, and he would have been written off as the obvious Jew-hating leftist crank he is long ago by the remaining few sycophants he has if he didn't have mommy and daddy to hide behind.
[Message deleted by blog admin.]
unfortuNATE, I admit that I have NOT spent and am NOT willing to spend time wading through norman finkelsteins CRAP.
I'll leave that to others who enjoy reading stuff that david duke promotes on his website (duke promotes norman finkelsteins rants)
Apparently norman finkelstein has no problems with dukes endorsement. norman needs to sell his books.
Now when it comes to real RACISM, unfortuNATEly you are BLIND to:
- hamas charter of 1988 (same year Pan AM 103 was bombed by islamofascists)
- hamas charter depicts Jews as sons of pigs and monkeys (is that racist unfortuNATE?)
- hamas charter hates Freemasons AND Lions and Rotarians - hamas says they are !Zionists!.
- hezbullah and their penchant for nazi-style outstretched arm salutes
- coincidentally shitlers mein kampf, the arabic edition, is a best seller in the arab world - that may account for the popularity of outstretched arm salutes
- taliban dynamiting of two 1,500 year old Buddahs in Bamiyan Afghanistan (is that islam respecting other religions?)
- the 7/7/05 bus and underground bombing in london by islamofascists
- the 8 year iraq/iran war
- islamofascist regime of iran using children to clear mine fields
- honor killings
- kidnapping of journalists
- beheading of journalist Daniel Pearl while masked men were shouting "allah akbar"
- Beslan school massacre
- Beltway sniper john "muhammed"
- murder of Theo Van Gogh
- death fatwa against Salman Rushdie for writing a book of fiction
- Bali bombing
- failed sneaker bomber richard reid - he is why all passengers must take off their shoes at airport checkpoints
- suicide bombings in iraq
- sunni/shiite inter-religious massacres
- executions of gays by the islamofascist regime of iran
- saddam husseins used of WMD (poison gas) on the Kurds of Halabja Iraq - 5,000 dead
- Mumbai India massacre
- hijacking of the '72 Olympics
- Current day slavery in Sudan
- Somali pirates
From the River to the Sea
PaleSWINE will NEVER BE!
INSHALLAH!
Joanne, hows your "peace quilt" coming along? If you deliver it to Ahmadinejad, he just might be persuaded to accept a World WITH Israel and Jews.
Eddie: "unfortuNATE, I admit that I have NOT spent and am NOT willing to spend time wading through norman finkelsteins CRAP."
To Eddie and Sophia: --->
Typical. When a Zionist cant refute the facts - the topic here was whether Finkelstein's scholarly work is impeccable or not - they change and distract the issue on hand to Ahmedinejad, Hamas, swines, etc... They label people who do not support their political agenda as a racist, Jew hater and, my personal favorite, as an Anti-Semite. Why? Because Finkelstein address the racism and injustice commit by Israel. Simple as that. As if Jews, not to mention non-Jews, aren't allowed to criticize other "Jews" when their actions do so insist. This is the exact reason why you Eddie and Sophia should leave your criticism and conclusions to people who are willing to examine AND question the facts regardless of their own political preferences instead of accusing and persecuting those without any sufficient research done by yourselves. As if we were still living in the Middle Ages...
Facts are facts and scientific research is just that regardless of ones own political stance. This is the defining difference between Finkelstein and Dersh just as it is with most if not all other Zionists.
Rasputin. There's a huge difference between accepting and trying to do something about Israel's shortcomings as a state (which also apply to most states btw) and claiming that Finkelstein is a great scholar.
His own words display a distressing degree of bias and also, I'd put him in the flamethrower category.
What's he's actually done hasn't so much shed light on problems that can be solved with patience and humanity as ratchet up the "debate" to the point that it actually creates a more dangerous and violent situation.
This makes reconciliation between Israeli factions and certainly between Israel and the Arabs less likely, not more likely.
It certainly makes antisemitic attacks against Diaspora Jews more likely and it makes violence against Israel more likely also as it feeds the flames of insane, unreasoning bias. In turn this results in more, not less victimization of Arabs because eventually there will be retaliations.
Then people are hurt and they react often violently; there are more retaliations, etc etc etc ad infinitum.
This is smart? It's good to incite this kind of hatred and this kind of behavior? It's good to feed into an already powerful stream of misojudaism not only in the West but in the Middle East? This will solve the Arab/Israeli conflict?
Whose side are you on really? The side of moderates who are trying to put things back together, encourage creativity and peaceful solutions to problems and make it possible for warring parties to communicate and resolve their differences in a humane manner?
Or do you prefer the side of "radicals" who, claiming to illuminate, do a huge amount of harm not least to people who've already been victimized far too many times?
Frankly I think the latter are more self-indulgent than otherwise. It's easy to get famous by being outrageous. It's a lot harder to work slowly and carefully, a person at a time, to try and reduce racism, religious bigotry and fear.
And, the whole idea of a "Holocaust industry" has overtones of Portnoy doesn't it but also Baader-Meinhof who figured the best way to rebel against their parents was to adapt their grandparents' antisemitism and attack Israel, also committing acts of mindless terror that harmed many innocents.
Wow. How edgy.
RatSputum,
When a "progressively morally bankrupt" jackasses such as yourself, are faced with a litany of islamofascist atrocities, they are SILENT. Deafingly SILENT.
Neocommies, proggies, cair, islamofascist jihad cry "islamophobia"!
Boo Hoo. It's another nakbah! It's a catastrophe for dhimmi JOOOZ to kick islamofascist lifted ass!
It's "racist" to oppose islamofascism!
It's "islamophobic" to oppose islamofascism!
It's blasphemy to draw a cartoon of "the prophet" (not blasphemy to destroy Buddhas).
It's "racist" to oppose honor killings - after first raping a muslim woman to mark her as defiled - the only way out is suicide.
RatSputum, Keep buying norman finkelsteins books. He needs the money.
Yoo Hoo, unfortuNATE, where are you????
Did you run away??? YOUR SILENCE is DEAFENING.
Talk about ad hominem and leaving your medication taken. What a waist of server space.
"It certainly makes antisemitic attacks against Diaspora Jews more likely and it makes violence against Israel more likely also as it feeds the flames of insane, unreasoning bias. In turn this results in more, not less victimization of Arabs because eventually there will be retaliations."
Sophia,
That sounds pretty much a threat. Is it?
You talk about antisemitism as if we were still living in the brink of WW2. There's is no more antisemitism than there is racism towards Blacks, Hispanics or Arabs. In fact, quite the opposite. Jews in general are making it far better than any other minority whether in North America or Europe. Further more Jews are making it better than the average citizens in the US and you know this is true. This is not to say they shouldn't or there's something wrong about it, no, but to raise the antisemitism card when raising Israeli policies and Zionist war crimes commit on daily basis on the table is truly thick if anything. So please save it or provide some credible stats which prove otherwise.
Rasputin, with respect:
How on earth can you construe my comment as a threat?
My statement about incitement causing violence is a reflection of the obvious: when people are radicalized as in the Middle East, they often attack each other.
It's true everywhere. Tell people "the other" is bad often enough, then blame him for this or that and all too frequently action follows thought. Look at Rwanda for example.
In the case of Israel lies, fear and prejudice have resulted in several wars and countless acts of terror against state and people and has resulted in counterattacks.
Incitement from the West is most certainly playing a role here and has done probably since the 1920's when European antisemitism, like the Protocols and later Nazi philosophy were imported to the Middle East during British, French colonial days and also the Germans were influential as well as the Russians. And, many Brits in the Mandate were bigoted against Jews.
Thus my comment is simply a reflection of the fact that innacuracies about Israel and Jewish people in general are feeding into the generally antisemitic culture that certainly pertains in the Middle East today.
This in turn does absolutely nothing to help mitigate the situation between Israel and the Arabs and/or Iran/Iranian proxies. It causes more misunderstandings, it incites people to violence.
Similarly the portrayal of Jews as uniquely evil, as in the Protocols, is an important aspect of the philosophies of Hamas, Hezbollah et.al. and it's hard to see how, when people are portrayed as evil, this doesn't cause violence against them and their state (in the case of Israel).
You're wrong if you think this doesn't exist or that antisemitism isn't a problem even in the West.
The fact that there is prejudice against OTHER groups in the West doesn't mean that Jews aren't also at risk. Antisemitic incidents in the US far outnumber attacks on Christians or Muslims. In Europe it's worse. Check the US Gov't statistics. Anecdotally I live in a multicultural area and I have seen many, many acts of vandalism against Jewish institutions, the offices of politicians known to be Jews and openly religious Jews have been intimidated in the street. This isn't imaginary!
Indeed one of the worrisome aspects of fringe right groups is that white supremacists are feeding off it. Stormfront and KKK are quite pleased with the polarization in American politics and by the general tone of anger, by the conspiracy theories, etc.
By the same token antizionism is frequently driven by or overlaps with antisemitism particularly since Israel is already a fact and can't be undone without grievous harm to millions of people.
Judenhass IS more acute though in the Middle East, indeed President Obama spoke out against incitement - it's high time somebody did because antisemitism in the Middle East is obnoxious, it's a matter of general discourse, ie it is common, it's reinforced even by state media and also religious institutions. It is distressingly common in mainstream Arab papers and on TV and in film.
Middle Eastern antisemitism is a combination of Nazi memes with old prejudices against Jews as well as anti-Israel sentiment. This is a very bad thing and it's responsible to a large degree for the conflict and for ongoing war.
If you don't believe me please do some research on the subject - it isn't hard, it would probably take you about 10 minutes to begin to see my point.
This isn't limited to Muslims either, it's part and parcel particularly of eastern Christianity where replacement covenant and blaming Jews for the death of Jesus remain common.
Check out the philosophy of the group Sabeel for instance.
Another case in point is the Iranian government which promotes mockery of the Shoah, claims it didn't happen then has a cartoon contest about it while simultaneously threatening the state and people of Israel (and no it isn't mistranslation!)
In view of that Finkelstein's assertions are very painful. Surely you can understand that?
As far as Jews being successful - what does that have to do with antisemitism? In fact Muslims in America are better off than most Americans and more likely to have advanced degrees - does that mean there isn't Islamophobia in the US? Please.
Also, the very fact that Jews as a group WERE successful to some degree in Europe exposed them to attack. You should know better than to claim that success is any guarantee against antisemitic sentiment or behavior.
RatSputum,
The islamist/wahabbist controlled OPEC, which gouges the ENTIRE WORLD with its OVERPRICED OIL,
(which the ENTIRE WORLD pays for with AFTER-TAX dollars)
is insatiable in it's islamist/wahabbist GREED.
islamofascist crimes against humanity might trigger the retaliatory nuclear destruction of mecca/makka and the kabba.
I hope that the people who value, revere mecca/makka, the kabba, the Hajj, will be able to end the islamofascist onslaught, end islamofascist crimes against humanity.
And just what is saudi arabia (supposedly a friend of the US) doing to help the US, help the World, capture osama bin laden and destroy al qada?
Certainly a saudi would have easier access, be able to penetrate al qada, than a Westerner.
Unless saudi arabia in reality supports obl and al qada.
And where is norman finkelstein, neo-commies, neo-nazi filth, socialist, progressively blind goody-two-shoes, on the islamist, islamofascit threat to the entire World?
Eddie, You have already proven not be worth of a one sentence more than already stated. Learn how to communicate and express yourself in a respectful manner and perhaps you will have people willing to exchange opinions and visions with you next time.
Sophia,
"Thus my comment is simply a reflection of the fact that innacuracies about Israel and Jewish people in general are feeding into the generally antisemitic culture that certainly pertains in the Middle East today."
But myself at least haven't found one, not one, inaccuracy from Finkelsteins study and it must be said I ain't renowned scholar but the fact remains that neither has any serious scholars! That's the point here made by me and others. And when people call him the scum of the earth because he does his work in an uncompromising manner surely is appealing. His uncompromising and uncorrupted approach as a scholar is something to be respect not disrespect, dont you think? And even more considering his background. He is the one who should be making fraudulent accusations and claims if you think about what he has "inherited". For this specific reason I can do nothing but to respect this man. For me he is an exemplary Jew. He has given up from many privileges and committed his whole life for what he sees right and just. He is concerned not only about the Jewish suffering (perhaps the reason Zionists despise him?, no?)but the suffering of mankind. He truly proves not to be a racist or a supremacist and I don't think unlike most Zionists who label him as an antisemite when he doesn't support Israeli policies. Personally I find that kind of thinking truly disgusting, hypocritical and racist/supremacist considering the death toll on both sides and the founding context from the beginning of this conflict.
This man IS honest in his work and has "grown" from the inhumane suffering laid upon his family which usually affects for generations. If you talk to him and ask his views on other conflicts and oppressing regimes he is always speaking for the underdog. In other words he doesn't put his Jewishness in front of injustice which for me personally is just one of the reasons to respect and acknowledge him even more as I was always brought up to treat humans as humans regardless of their ethnicity...
You surely can dislike and disagree with his political stance, that's alright and that's a privilege which you should and MUST have but to label him as an a antisemite because he doesnt support the illegal settlemests, occupation, annexation of land; Israelis unyielding position to expand its territories by the expense of Palestinian suffering and the hideous killing of children by the IDF is NOT a legit reson to label him as an antisemite. Or what would you say?
What comes to inflaming hatred we have one example on this thread already so Im not going to that any more than is needed instead Id like to ask you a couple questions. Why is it that Jews and Palestinians were living *relatively* peaceful before the first Aliyah (not at least killing each other on this scale)? Who were the Irgun and Stern Gang and what were their political agenda and more over how did they manifest and implement it? Do you categorize them as terrorist? And if not, why? One thing is a historical fact though Stern Gang did collaborate with the Nazis against the British during WW2 in Palestine by commiting terrorist attacks. Were they fascists as well? Should we call them Jewonazis or Zionazis? I find that kind of labeling destructive and counterproductive. How would you label them? Patriots? There is ALWAYS more than enough blame to go around that's for sure but the question is how do we recognise the human condition and even more how much are we willing to contribute to prevent that kind of behavior which we do not agree on and how our own attitudes and actions contribute to that behavior. If you're American as I assume, how would you react if the native Indians started bombing your house and killing your children for the sole reason that you are living in their land, that they are the original owners of that land you are living in and you should go, back your bags and go flee to europe where you belong(I'm assuming here once again)? I don't care whether you are a Jew, an Arab or an Inuit; for me it makes no difference as we are all human beings after all.
That's pretty much what I can conclude to you. But hey, that's just me...
@all
If anyone here can show what and how Finkelstein went wrong in his argument(s), please enlighten me..
coz from the "research" about his work..
I can only find a simple-make-sense argument over and over again.
tx all.
RatSputum and the sack of Shitler calling itself Stuttgart have a real hard on for norman finkelstein.
Can either of you boys tell us why norman and yourselves can't bring yourselves to look at the crimes against humanity committed by islamofascism?
Mumbai, Bali, Madrid, London, attempts to blow up other planes crossing the Atlantic.
Just WHO aren't islamofascists at war with?
Why was the mufti of Jerusalem an ally of your furher Shitler?
Why is Shitlers "mein kampf" a best seller in the arab world?
Why do hezbullah islamofascist do outstretched arm salutes favored by your furher?
Don't worry RatSputum and stuttgart, the Israelis are NOT the unarmed Jew of WW2 europe.
Eddie: "Why was the mufti of Jerusalem an ally of your furher Shitler?"
---> You want to talk about Nazi affiliations, terrorism and criminal activities?? Here:
"Early attempts to raise funds through criminal activities, including a bank robbery in Tel Aviv in 1940 and another robbery on 9 January 1942 in which Jewish passers-by were killed, brought about the temporary collapse of the group, and an attempt to assassinate the head of the British secret police in Lod in which three police personnel were killed, two Jewish and one British, elicited a severe response from the British and Jewish establishments who collaborated in an effort to eliminate the underground organisation.[25]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_gang#Evolution_and_tactics_of_the_organization
"In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_gang#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities
Considering the rest of your worthless, distasteful and prejudice post in addition to your paranoid/schizophrenic and delusional jargon I have already responded you more for the behest of your mental health than is acguired. For your own interest I suggest that you go back to the medication prescribed to you or if you havent yet had the sense to get some it is about time already.
RatSputum, you pathetic lying sack of Shitler, (do you expect us to believe your real name is grigori rasputin?),
The islamofascist swine YOU support were fighting FOR nazi germany.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/troops_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm
Here is your mufti of Jerusalem "mohammad amin al-husayni" meeting with your furher Shitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1987-004-09A,_Amin_al_Husseini_und_Adolf_Hitler.jpg
Notice your nazi muftis outstretched arm salute???
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/mufti_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm
But wait, there's more!
Here are your 21th century muslim nazis doing the very same outstretched arm salute...
http://media.canada.com/idl/ntnp/20060804/69048-24665.jpg
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20080218HizballahSalute.jpg
Here are your muslim CHILDREN being brainwashed to perform your outstretched arm salute.
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/hezbollahkidsnazisalute.jpg
RatSputum, Do you REALLY want to compare the Stern Gang, Lehi,
to your "heroic" al qada, hamass, hezbullah, osama bin laden, islamic jihad, plo, pflp, abu sayed, pflp, slave trading, somali pirating, plane hijacking, ship hijacking, school hijacking, olympics hijacking, Senator RFK assassinating, journalist beheading, Londonistan bombing, Bumbai bombing, Bali bombing SWINE???
Hmmm?
Your incompetence is amusing to say the least.
Here: http://brainmind.com/images/BushNaziBrainMindcom.jpg
RatSputum, now you LIE and HIDE behind "g.r.".
Your STUPIDITY is boundless.
Keep buying norman finklesteins books. It fits nicely next to your autographed picture of david puke.
Never forget RatSputum, the Israelis are NOT the unarmed Jews of WW2 nazi vermin infested europe.
EURABIA didn't want Jews, now it's getting OVERRUN by islamofascists. LOL!
The former europe is DOOMED. LOL!
“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel ‘aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel’s support for Hamas ‘was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,’ said a former senior CIA official.”
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006/01/27/hamas-son-of-israel/
Talk about sob's, eh? I can't understand how can u afford laugh about this considering the jewsih deaths and the fact that it is the exact same government which you defend here who aided and supported Hamas to get to power. That same Hamas who is responsible for Jewsih deaths. Their chapter didnt prevent Israel to support them then why do you think it is a sufficient reson to ignore them now?
That medication dude, that medication...
WHAT A FILM. not surei if people had the time to check it our but o saw it in new york a few weeks ago.
three thumps up to the filmmakers.
i finally learned who finkelstein was
polo, you have three thumbs?
Norman Finkelstein is not a scholar, he's a propagandist.
In his last book ''This time we went too far'' he really goes too far! He fabricates a real CONSPIRACY THEORY.
First, he says that Hamas accepted the existence of Israel.
Therefore, according to him, Israel decided to destroy Hamas or to harm it so much that it would become impossible for this group to accept the existence of Israel.
This assertion comes from his imagination, there is no solid argument behind it.
First of all, in 2008, Israel proposed to give 99% of the West Bank to the Palesinian authority plus a safe passage connecting the West Bank to the Gaza strip.
Why Israel would try to crush Hamas in order to make sure that it will never recognize Israel if a few months before, Israel has proposed to give up almost everything to the Palestinian authority?
Also, Olmert said in November of 2008, that Israel has to withdraw from all of the Occupied territories.
It proves that when Kadima was in power, Israel did not want to keep the West Bank as he says.
Finkelstein also says that 90% of the Israelis supported the Gaza massacre. He says that is Israel is a ''satanic'' and a ''lunatic'' state. He went further by saying that this country comes from the ''boils of hell''.
What kind of scholar would talk like that?
He does not try to understand the Israeli public opinion, he INSULTS the people of Israel.
First of all, 90% of the Israelis supported a war against Hamas (that was launching hundreds of rockets on the fourth and the fifth largest cities in Israel (Ber Sheva and Ashdod), not a ''massacre''.
Maybe Israel has commited war crimes, but those who supported the war were not necessarely responsible for what happened on the battlefield. It's exactly like saying that all those who supported the war in Irak supported the torture of Abu Ghraib prisoners. It's just ridiculous.
Furthermore, Finkelstein says that Hezbollah is a resistance group. What are they resisting to exactly? Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon in 2000, and yet, Hezbollah never disarmed. Moreover, it is still commited to the destruction of the state of Israel on behalf of the Palestinians (in spite of the fact that the Palestinians have already recognized Israel!)
By the way, Nasrallah asked Israeli Arabs to leave Northern Israel during the 2006 war. As I said, Hezbollah asked only Israeli Arabs to go, not the Jews. According to human rights groups, Hezbollah also targeted Israeli citizens during this war. They also shelled rockets on Haifa, the third largest city in Israel which they were not able to reach when Israel was still occupying Lebanon.
Finally, I'd like to add something which might impress some Israel haters. Between 2001 untill 2005, around 2/3 of Israelis supported the Clinton parameters (which ask Israel to withdraw from 95 to 99% of the West Bank).
The Clinton parameters were by the way, the framework accepted both by the Israelis and the Palestinians in December of 2000 to reach a peace agreement.
Today, you still have more than 50% of Israelis who agree with those parameters.
As you can see, Finkelstein is not trying to understand what is happening in Israel. He just wants to make his case against Israel. He's looking for elements that would prove that Israel comes from the "boils of hell''. He's not a real scholar, he just a propagandist.
He might be well articulated, but you can't rely on him.
Rather than insulting the Israelis, maybe he should try to bring together all those who militate in favor in peace. Unfortunately, he praises Hezbollah.
He's not a moderate, he's an extremist. Norman Finkelstein is an enemy of peace and dialogue.