Friday, August 8, 2008
Interesting debate in Syria broadcast on Al-Jazeera. My impression is that the Islamists freak out when they hear about a secular state because Arab society is so patriarchal, and Arab states are so totalitarian, that they can't imagine that a secular state won't also be set on secularizing them. They don't understand the concept of separate public and personal spheres as we do in the West. They can't grasp that a government need not be based directly on religious doctrine without being informed by it through the practice, preferences and interpretations of its citizenry. Until they get that they'll forever be on crutches.
Following are excerpts from a symposium featuring Syrian actor Bassam Al-Kossa and 'Uweid Al-Mash'an, head of the psychology department at the University of Kuwait. The symposium aired on Al-Jazeera TV on June 20, 2008.
...Bassam Al-Kossa: "The first thing [Western] societies did was to separate religion and state. This was the first thing. Why? Because even when the Church ruled Europe, it was, in fact, ruled by the Inquisition, and they would kill any innovative person, any scholar, and any doctor. So they separated religion and state...
"From the age of three or four, the killings of girls begin: 'Cover your knees.' 'Don't speak in a loud voice.' 'Bring your brother his food.' 'Get up, put this there.' 'Take this down.' All the while, the 'emperor' just sits there... 'This is disgraceful,' and 'that is prohibited'... Then comes her wedding day, and the mother demands that this oppressed and shackled girl be the epitome of womanhood, seduction, and temptation. You constantly make her fear men and society, yet on her wedding night, at the drop of a hat, she is supposed to be transformed into a seductive beauty queen, to understand the husband, cooperate with him, and so on. These are double standards. Like my colleague said, this is like a man who beats his son for lying, but when someone calls, he says to his son: 'Tell him I'm not home.'"...
...'Uweid Al-Mash'an: "We do not want a secular state. The Arab countries are not secular states. We have our religion and the shari'a, and we have values that we must preserve. Modernity is desirable. We all want modernity, but when it runs counter to our values, customs, and traditions, it must be rejected. Every person in this world lives according to the social values that he absorbs. We must reject the erasing of our identity."
Female panel member: "Nobody said that we are against..."
'Uweid Al-Mash'an: "Allow me... We must reject the erasing of our identity. We do not want our identity to be erased. We refuse to be subservient and do not want a secular state. Our religion has a constitution - the Islamic Shari'a...
Any man can dedicte the diffrences between the west (before the discovery of america island) and the struggle between religoen and the will of people to live and have respect to their dignity , and the islamic world.
on women case, time will proof that women (with exceptions ) are not what the west call for to be fully liberised and free, and aids and other diseases are the begining of many troubles in the near future. including aging societies and falled families.
there is even a christian website that acknowldges those things, and they know deep inside what (50 percent of work force) and other theories caused to the world , .
sorry I just remmeberd the website as I am in medina and away from my favorite websites list.
http://thecurseof1920.com/
http://blog.thecurseof1920.com/?p=74
Medina, ah yes, one of the primary targets of retaliatory nuclear destruction - if the US or India or Israel suffer a nuke attack.
Arabian's views of women's liberation are positively frightening, for a young man living in the 21st century. He seems to be the product of the kind of upbringing which Bassam Al-Kossa describes.
Persian, rather than Arab, but this post from an Iranian ex-pat in Britain illuminates Islamicist and at least some Islamic thought - or rationalizations - as pertains to women, also illuminating a prominent strain of leftist thought and rationalizations. I won't excerpt as there are some potential prurient interests involved, but it's an instructive piece of commentary on two or three different levels.
I had intended to note some updated information out of Iran and its mullahs as well, here.
"Arabian's views of women's liberation are positively frightening, for a young man living in the 21st century. He seems to be the product of the kind of upbringing which Bassam Al-Kossa describes."
Lets leave my views aside for a while.
bassam al kousa is a normal arab mind, or leftovers of the nationalistic era, and the comunist. This kind of thinking is normal in egypt an syria, because the embrassed communism and they were smashed, then nationilism and the got smashed, so they find any ideolgy and stick to it so that they progress, although he seeks progress in his society scincerely, but he embrasses the mechavilian theory.
so he is not a big deal, he will go were the wind blows.
""" (22) Assuredly Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim. Lo! He loveth not the proud. (23) And when it is said unto them: What hath your Lord revealed? they say: (Mere) fables of the men of old, (24) That they may bear their burdens undiminished on the Day of Resurrection, with somewhat of the burdens of those whom they mislead without knowledge. Ah! evil is that which they bear! (25)"""
he must wait and know that islam is not the reason for all whats happining, but god tests the believers.
"""" That which ye have wasteth away, and that which Allah hath remaineth. And verily We shall pay those who are steadfast a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do."""
there is a big debate right know in the arab world on the role of women, and i will talk about that later, but let me assure you first, that women will drive in saduia, and will wear revealing clothes, and even people will have sex in the streets and police will just tell them to do it in a private area, be sure! its well known and prophet mohammed said that and its found in the books for seekers, as he said that shoeless beduins will build the highest towers on earth.
take the example in dubai couple of weeks ago, a police officer found two couples having sex on the beach!, he just told them to go away and he is a muslim in a miuslim country, they didnt go and the second time he arrested them.
so its just sighns and they will come.
"""(36) Even if thou (O Muhammad) desirest their right guidance, still Allah assuredly will not guide him who misleadeth. Such have no helpers. (37) And they swear by Allah their most binding oaths (that) Allah will not raise up him who dieth. Nay, but it is a promise (binding) upon Him in truth, but most of mankind know not, (38) That he may explain unto them that wherein they differ, and that those who disbelieved may know that they were liars. (39)"""
secondly, islam and women case, let us see some verses from the holy quran i wont say anything from my mind.
before that , when countries allow abortion and kill their kids, because the dont feel like bringing babies, its alright. then they take about women rights in other cultures.
bassam alkousa as the prophet mohammed said, there will come times when the silly takes and the knowledge is taken from earth.
"""58. And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief!
59. He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonor or bury her in the earth? Certainly, evil is their decision. """"
prophet mohamed last ceremon, women are mentioned.
After praising, and thanking God, he said: "O People, listen well to my words, for I do not know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.
O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Treat others justly so that no one would be unjust to you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (riba), therefore all riba obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital , however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer inequity. God has judged that there shall be no riba and that all the riba due to `Abbas ibn `Abd al Muttalib shall henceforth be waived.
Every right arising out of homicide in pre-Islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that I waive is that arising from the murder of Rabi`ah ibn al Harith ibn `Abd al Muttalib.
O Men, the Unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which God forbade, and to forbid that which God has made permissible. With God the months are twelve in number. Four of them are sacred, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Sha`ban. Beware of the devil, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.
O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...
O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God (The One Creator of the Universe), perform your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your financial obligation (zakah) of your wealth. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.
All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.
Remember, one day you will appear before God (The Creator) and you will answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.
O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.
All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people.
*The Qur'an: Revealed to Prophet Muhammad during the period from 610-632 AC. The first five verses revealed are: (1) Read in the name of your Lord, Who created. (2) Created man out of a clot that clings (in the womb). (3) Read and your Lord is the Most Bountiful. (4) Who taught by the pen. (5) Taught man that which he knew not.
sorry for this lonnng post, but its my duty to clear things up, and respond.