I think they are bogus too and also have major chutzpah, but worse are very shortsighted.

No doubt they think they are doing this "for our own good".

This ticks me off.

But also it reflects the really evil conspiracy theories proposing that Israel isn't "in America's interest", which have reinforced canards about "undue influence" or "dual loyalty" and made it uncomfortable to speak out or, G*d forbid, "lobby", and this is driving old-fashioned judenhass here in the US and Europe and Latin America, even in nations that have no Jews.

Note I think there's plenty of room for compromise with the Arabs, much more that we can do to improve relations between Islam and the West. Frankly we should all be trying to think of solutions to the problems that confront us, not just reacting blindly in anger and in fear.

There is plenty of room for all of to improve period, and I think it's incumbent upon all people of good will to try and communicate and find solutions to our problems including that of Palestinians who lack self-determination and a secure homeland.

That's a far cry though from endorsing what really amounts to an antisemitic worldview.

PS before somebody even thinks it: no, "criticizing Israel" is not antisemitic.

Trying to figure out how to destroy, weaken, demonize or undermine Israel is most certainly antisemitic.

So is attacking other Jews who disagree with you, and there is NOTHING more antisemitic than targeting Jews for being Jews, for having a history, languages and traditions that, like Christian and Muslim and other religious and secular and national traditions, HAVE VALUE.

We do not have less value than other people. We do not have less intrinsic rights. We are in fact entitled to self-defense, we are entitled to dissenting opinions here and abroad and we do not have to take rockets up the kazoo indefinitely.

There is nothing unnatural or untoward or heaven forbid unprogressive or unAmerican about wanting, like any other nation, to live in peace and security and be accepted as legitimate by the nations and peoples of the world.

There is nothing wrong with having a sense of "home" in Israel, as Greeks have in Greece or the French has in France - yet Jews are accused of conspiracies and other crimes for expressing this simple desire and for having opinions that might not agree with those of a powerful national and religious bloc which has enormous space, huge resources of great value to the industrialized world (read "best interests") - yet which can't seem to find a home for their own displaced people, people displaced in wars they have started against a much tinier, vulnerable state.

So where oh where are the "progressives" when it comes to defending THIS minority, this little democracy?

Where are the "progressives" when expediency rears its ugly head and "interests" seek to destroy the bonds of kinship between open Western democracies, and threaten to target, once again, the vulnerable Jews both in Israel and around the world?

Something isn't right about this.

Note I think there's plenty of room for compromise with the Arabs, much more that we can do to improve relations between Islam and the West. Frankly we should all be trying to think of solutions to the problems that confront us, not just reacting blindly in anger and in fear.

Are the Arabs prepared to compromise?
It doesn't look that way after all these years.
But anyway, describe what you feel should be compromised to appease the Arab conscious into accepting the existence of Israel.
In the zero sum game they have been playing there is no compromise except one's existence that will satisfy them.

Oops! conscious conscience

Hi Cynic.

People rightly pointed out the fact that there is no stereotypical "Muslim world" and I think that's also true of the "Arab world".

In fact there are several hundred million Arab people, individuals, some of whom are progressive, open and willing to listen and some are openly proWestern. Many are struggling in dictatorial regimes. There are many ethic groups and religious minorities within the 22 nations of the Arab League. The Palestinian people themselves are highly diverse and there are both religious extremists and secular parties throughout the region.

I think, if we look even at Lebanon or among the Palestinians, we will find there are people who are quite open to compromise.

But, you're correct, there are sufficient numbers including many leaders who are against Israel on religious or even existential grounds and others with historical grievances, who wrongly see Israel as a British colony even though we fought the Empire and were grievously harmed by it, and continue to suffer from British and other European venom. By "we" I mean both Jews and Israel by the way.

I do not think there is a quick or easy answer to the question you've asked and that is the core of the problem. If there were we would be living in peace already.

I have more to say about this because I have some ideas but I have to go to class - so later:)

OK I am back and have caught up with Bibi's speech and reactions thereto.

Apparently the term "Jewish state" remains an impossible sticking point.

Since that's the case I don't know how to respond to Cynic. I have no solutions beyond what Bibi suggested, practical, reality based ideas. They aren't enough probably but they are all that might work along with continuing education and attempts to rid the region of bigoted propaganda and lies.

We can also condition ourselves to try and see the Palestinians as people and not react against them reflexively, we can struggle against being bigots and blind to our essential brotherhood.

I think there's plenty of room to work on that, and we can control our own behavior even if other issues are beyond our reach.

I do think it's essential to give the Palestinians some sense that they control their own destiny. Right now I am sure they feel anger, hopelessness, they feel trapped, that the future holds no hope. One can see this in Israeli films - it doesn't take much in the way of humanity to understand this and empathize with it.

Anything we can do to ameliorate this really can go a long way to improving matters where they count - on the ground - for real human beings.

In that regard, the settlement issue is important. Refraining from creating new settlements is vital and so are measures that would ease life for Palestinians, which would reflect the fact that we respect them as fellow human beings and as a people.

Unfortunately though, I think the worst problem confronting Israel is not territorial nor is it primarily due to reasons we can control.

It is existential.

I think there is a root rejection of Israel as a free nation, a majority Jewish nation, period.

You know I really do not think even gifted intellectuals in the West, such as our President Obama, really "get" this core issue.

"We" think negotiations, borders, diplomacy, will "fix" this but it isn't in the realm of the rational world or the diplomat's art.

Israel is supposed to disappear one way or another, if not by physical destruction then by assimilation of millions of "refugees".

We have underestimated the religious aspects of the conflict for one thing, largely because we've been looking at it through Western eyes with little real understanding of the region's history.

And, even if 90% of the Arabs think Israel can exist as a Jewish state, there are still the radicals who will attack, and attack other moderate players.

This is true in other states too though - Iraq, Pakistan, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon - are any states in the Arab League, even much of Africa and Central Asia not afflicted by violence to some degree and/or repressive governments?

Perhaps the answer, then is regional rather than specific to Israel?

Maybe, focusing on Israel is putting the cart before the horse - propaganda to contrary notwithstanding - and it would be more helpful to focus on the problems of regional extremism, poor distribution of resources, bad economies, bad leaders?

That in itself might create a de-radicalized, secure climate in which the core issue - self-determination of Jewish people in Israel - might be addressed, and also create a better environment in which a Palestinian nation could flourish economically and in physical safety.

Right now, I don't think the latter condition could be met if only because of internal threats, the threat of civil war or attack from other players intent on destroying any peace. These issues have nothing to do with Israel but reflect the wrenching changes and underlying problems throughout this enormous area.

Further - back in the pesky real world - has anybody thought about the people in the Lebanese camps? I was reading a piece in Commentary the other day and Michael Totten mentioned that many of them are jihadists.

I don't know how many but I do believe that most have been radicalized, they've been hearing propaganda for 60 years and have been brutalized one way or another. They are living in poor conditions and many are armed.

How will they adjust to a new reality, should one arise? What if UNWRA ceases supporting them? How will they live? That's why simple basic ideas like Bibi's make more sense than sweeping rhetorical dreams. Make small steps, rational steps - build economically, build a sense of safety and security.

Here's another problem.

Even assuming a state were created tomorrow and Israel and the Palestinians were relatively ok with it, who and what army is going to disarm and evict 400,000 people from their homes in Lebanon if they don't want to leave?

And how will they be assimilated into an area where there are still more refugee camps, ie the West Bank and Gaza, long after they should have been demolished and replaced with real towns - and where one Palestinian faction is effectively at war with another?

Is this one of those days we maybe should have stayed in bed?

Well tough as these issues are I sure hope somebody is thinking about them and I kind of suspect they aren't. They are wishing for a magical, easy solution.

There isn't one.

There are just small, hard, logical steps and sometimes the steps will be going backwards.

Speaking of Zionists, how do you feel about Jeremiah Wright's comment that he intended to say "them Zionists would not let Obama speak to him," rather than "them Jews..."

Is Wright saying that Zionists, anyone supporting Israel and a Jewish state, are among those he disdains?

Also the IPF wants that two-state solution with a single idea put forth for how to achieve it.

I'm not Jewish, but this is easy for me: Netanyahu gave a brilliant speech, asking for no more than any decent, civilized country would ask.
Nothing changes in Palestine.

George Mitchell's muscle men have just arrived in Jerusalem:

The days of a shuttle envoy, who waits to have meetings set up with Israeli officials, asks questions and waits for answers that often fail to come, have passed. From now on we're taking a permanent presence, with presidential authority, which executes the White House policy, gets updates from the field, follows implementation of policy from up close and reports directly to the president on an ongoing daily basis. A front line branch office of the White house."

G-d bless and guide Netanyahu.

Hi Maggie.

Rev. Wright's comments are reprehensible.

Also I think his definition of the word "Zionist" derives from "The Protocols" and has nothing to do with real Zionism, he probably has no clue what it means, who we are, Jewish or Gentile.

I thought Bibi's speech was good too. I don't think it was in the least bit unreasonable. It is no longer 1947, there has already been a huge population transfer - hundreds of thousands of Jews lost everything and had to flee the Arab world - and as far as the request for a disarmed state - under the circumstances it's only logical.

May G*d bless and keep us all.

BTW I wish the people of Iran could realize that we are thinking of them here. Andrew Sullivan and others have been posting heartbreaking pictures and comments, even Roger Cohen put up a video on NYT that made me cry.

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/06/13/opinion/1194840903968/iran-s-contested-election.html?th&emc=th

Sophia,

If the West had not behaved as it has done then we could have reached a solution.
Unfortunately it has not been in their interest to seek a peaceful solution, and going by their past activities it seems that stoking the fire is part of their agenda.
Time and time again financing the most execrable regimes and condemning the ordinary sod in the street to misery and ignorance.

Roger Cohen, after all the rubbish he has written about Iran to malign the Israelis. He should have hidden his face in shame.

Hi Sophia, on Iran, yes I have up a couple of emails from Iranians and they are heartbreaking. I think there was no chance of anyone less moderate than Ahmadinejad (oxymoron, huh) winning, so I'm trying to think of this as perhaps the only way the Iranian people have to make a statement. The sad thing is, our President is giving the Iranian people no support at all. Right now, they need the very, very strong support of our media and our country's leaders.

On Wright, he is a strong supporter of the Palestinians and Hamas. I think he does know the difference, but in truth, his Black Liberation Theology mindset does not like Whites or Jews - whether or not they are Zionists.

There was nothing unreasonable in Netanyahu's speech in my opinion. Israel must not let anyone beat them down on this. He must hold his head high and keep his promise to his people - he has rightousness on his side. We are at the point that any sign of weakness will destroy Netanyahu (imho) :-)

In theory, Netanyahu kinda-sorta said the West Bank was up for negotiations - at the end of the peace talks. Some may not see it that way, but I did. I think it was a smart move. He was saying - do it my way, disarm and recognize our homeland and we'll talk about the West Bank.

I mentioned George Mitchell in my earlier comment. I saw today that he has met with Assad in Syria to see their help. Hilarious. There's only two things he can tell that country: 1) take in Palestinians and 2) the whole area must recognize Israel - and get behind it now because if you do not, you will be sorry. That's the attitude needed to make this work.

You know, there is no standing for anyone in the world not to recognize Israel. That's just the bottom line.

And, even if 90% of the Arabs think Israel can exist as a Jewish state, there are still the radicals who will attack, and attack other moderate players.

It doesn't matter how many Arab "men in the street" are willing to be reasonable about this. The vast majority of the world's Arabs live in totalitarian regimes, which don't give two hoots for what the people think.

What matters, therefore, is whether the decision makers are willing to be reasonable. The record shows that, with respect to Israel, they are not willing to be reasonable. And, unfortunately for Israel -- but even more unfortunately for Israel's neighbors -- you can't reason with the unreasonable.

It does matter, on the other hand, how Israelis think... because Israelis have shown themselves more than capable of bringing down a government they think no longer represents them.

(In other words, the situation is not symmetrical, and never has been. Talking about 'radicals on both sides' is meaningless.)

Israel has been willing to talk seriously to her neighbors since 1949. Perhaps one day there will be someone on the other side of the table, someone who speaks 'peace' and means it (instead of merely calculating how much money they can get for saying it). Perhaps someday there will be an Arab nation, or a non-Arab Muslim nation, willing to invest money in Israel in return for full access to Israeli R&D and Israeli top-of-the-line medical care and Israeli education and training. Such a country would help her own citizens far, far more than the decades of hatred have done.

It hasn't happened yet. Perhaps, God willing, we'll be lucky enough to see it in our lifetimes.

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline

Here's something to put those moderates into perspective:
Bibi's speech ...

However, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said Netanyahu's call for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a Jewish state torpedoed the chance for peace.
"The call to recognize Israel as a Jewish state complicates things further and scuppers the possibilities for peace," state news agency MENA quoted Mubarak as saying at a military ceremony. "No one will support this appeal in Egypt or elsewhere."

The delusion of clutching at moderates straws looking for peace which it seems only one side is truly intent on.

From what I understand Zionist = BNPers, indigenous caucasian British Christians who believe that they should have a homeland and not just a place where anyone but them can promote their culture, and policies which disempower the indigenous British Christians are to be pursued.

Its the same of the immigration debate and Israel.

However, most Jews in the UK and the US, have different policy prescriptions for those countries than the ones they hold for Israel.

Who knew?

EscapeVelocity, the comparison between Zionists and members of BNP is utterly and completely bogus.

In fact it is deeply offensive.

BNP are basing their philosophy of racism, exclusion of people from becoming British based on their color and ethnicity regardless of their need for sanctuary and whether or not they can assimilate into a modern Western nationstate and become just as British as you.

Also the situation of Britain is entirely different from the situation or history either of Israel or of the Jewish people.

I shouldn't have to make a list here. I am quite sure people can figure this out for themselves. If not I will be glad to write some paragraphs on the differences between Britain and the Jewish people, between British history and Jewish history.

One stark and simple fact that stands in sharp contrast to BNP's philosophy: anybody can become Jewish.

Zionism is not and never was based on principles of exclusion - quite the opposite in fact. The Israeli Declaration of Independence upholds and reflects these ideals. Only base and racist and incorrect interpretations of Zionist ideals would dare compare Zionism with the BNP.

This is, in fact, a favorite tactic of antisemites everywhere.

Also: many people, large minorities live in Israel who are Arab, Christian and Muslim alike, there are refugees there from Sudan, from wars in Asia, people of all colors and religions.

And - there was never an intent to chase the Arabs away in the first place but rather the expressed desire of Zionists has been to live with and/or side by side with the Arabs.

No - Israel is not a perfect democracy - Israeli Arabs are legally equal yet not fully embraced. Many of us refuse to see our Palestinian brothers as people. Some of us are racists here in the US.

That is wrong and I hope we will keep working to change this. One constant of Jewish history is the fact that we fail to live up to our ideals - there's nothing wrong with admitting this.

We do have bigots in our community - they shame us - they are not our ideal.

Now: Revisionist Zionism, reflecting fear that Jews would be attacked by Arabs, only arose after Jews actually were repeatly attacked and murdered and even so most of us still hold true to the original ideals of Herzl, even Buber, and do not reject others.

The global headquarters for the Ba'hai people is situated in Haifi. All religions are welcome and free to practice in Israel and Jews are of all races and all ethnicities.

This is in stark contrast to BNP's "whites only" philosophy, or the idea that only whites can be British.

It is true unfortunately that Jews have been damn near exterminated and systematically brutalized in situations where we are unable to defend ourselves. Therefore, the need for a majority Jewish state, where Jews will not become a victimized minority again, is clear.

There has just been too much history that shows once we become a minority and can't defend ourselves, we are victimized and murdered, tortured and expelled, en masse - today, even after all this, even after the Shoah, we remain creatures of myth. We are demonized and hated.

As Bibi said, some think Israel was created because of the Shoah. But in fact, if Israel had been created in time, maybe there would have been no Shoah.

This is simply not the case with white Brits, who in fact went out and conquered most of the planet and told it what to do. This includes Jews who were expelled from Britain and attacked routinely and blamed for various problems such as plagues, wars, economic depressions and revolutions. Israel is vilified in the British press to this day, antisemitism is rife in Britain and British officers fought for the Arabs in 1948.

And, in contrast to Zionism, which grew not out of imperialism but out of victimization and a desire to redeem a dying people, BNP is basing its policies on something that cannot be changed: race.

It is a reactionary movement based on fear - rather than a movement of redemption and renewal - a movement which includes Holocaust deniers, Islamophobes and people given to expressing themselves with the one-armed salute.

So.

You owe everybody here an apology.

And, you should go do some serious thinking.

BNP in fact represents the kind of intolerance that has victimized the Jewish people and other minorities for millenia. It's the kind of dehumanization that permitted Africans to be enslaved for hundreds of years, simply because they are black.

This cannot be the answer to challenges presented by a shrinking globe.

Might I also add one further comment: Jews were condemned to mass murder in Europe because nobody would take them in. In fact, Britain blockaded the Mandate and Jews trying to escape Europe died on the high seas. The Patria exploded in Haifa harbor. The Sturma was sunk by the Nazis off the cost of Turkey. After the war the Bevin government continued the blockade, disarmed loyal Jewish soldiers, and sent the Exodus 1948 back to the European camps.

Since the Shoah Britain and other European nations have opened their doors to others seeking help. It is too late for the Jews who were turned away, even by America, but maybe people seeking help from repression in Africa, in Asia, elsewhere around the world, can still be saved.

I salute Europe for awakening to these problems and opening their arms. America is based on this very principle.

There is nothing wrong with this. It is in fact a mitzvah, a blessing, and the fact that British and other European leaders did not work hard enough to assimilate immigrant groups and understand where they are coming from does not obviate the fact that bigotry such as yours was responsible for the murder of millions.

Indeed, were it not for the oft-expressed desire to murder the Jews of Israel, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion and Arabs and Jews would be living together in peace.

Unfortunately, the desire to destroy us has followed us to the Middle East, to our very cradle.

I want to live to see the day when there is no need for fences, no need for security, no need for guns, no need for fear.

Help us bring that about. Work for tolerance in Britain, not for fear.

PS: Cynic is right, interests in the West and also, during the Cold War the Soviets, now the Russians, have not been working for a solution. Some have actively been working against one, inciting the worst, most extreme factions.

Gary Kasparov has said, in re Putin, that keeping things stirred up in the Middle East is in their interests too, it guarantees high oil prices.

This is reflected by the Anglo-American oil companies too and their behavior. Indeed, I believe the Arab League boycott of Israel extends to individual Jews.

This boycott per the UN is strictly illegal, it is based on religion, yet it been effective and in practice since the early 1930's.

As to Roger Cohen, indeed he should hide his face in shame. At last, however, he is showing himself to be a journalist of courage and power and has had the grace to admit his error regarding the regime in Iran.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/opinion/15iht-edcohen.html

Perhaps he shall also recognize his error and the damage he has done to am Yisroel.

Now, I would also like Juan Cole, who thinks the election in Iran was bogus too, I would like him to apologize to us. Now that Iranians are getting beat up he sees the light. I guess threats to exterminate Jews or destroy the country of Israel didn't count.

He has weaseled for years now, claiming Ahmadijenad didn't really mean what he said.

I am probably dreaming but maybe even Fisk could get a grip? Nah - that's probably asking TOO much...

Even the New York Times in its editorial early this morning now states this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/opinion/15mon1.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

Well, it may already be too late. Thanks in part to the anti-Israel lobby and the thirst for oil nothing effective has been done to "engage" Iran or deal realistically with the centrifuges, spinning away.

I could cry.

I am crying.

I am weeping for the people in Iran, for the women stoned, forced into hijab, for the non-existent gays, for the dissidents, the students, the trade unionists, the mothers, the weavers, the tribal people - the people who just want to breathe and think for themselves.

I am weeping for the images of mushroom clouds superimposed on the Star of David.

May Ha Shem protect us all. May just this once - may we all find a path through the valley.

Sophia,

No - Israel is not a perfect democracy - Israeli Arabs are legally equal yet not fully embraced.

How can you be so naive and not realise the conundrum that faces Israeli Jews: How do they embrace a culture that religiously excoriates them hourly, employs taquiya willy nilly and can become a 5th column in seconds at the behest of a rumour or an inflammatory speech by an Imam?

Does yet not fully embraced apply to accepting the Arabs as military officers, as policemen and high ranking officers, as judges and medical professionals controlling departments in big hospitals etc?
Or because Muslims don't live amongst Jews in most cities because of the cultural conflict of insinuating sharia into the daily lives of the Jews? There are towns and suburbs where some Muslims live amongst the Jews.
How would you have the embracing carried out? Converting to Islam?

Many of us refuse to see our Palestinian brothers as people.

Given their hideous behaviour, is it any wonder?

In fact, Britain blockaded the Mandate and Jews trying to escape Europe died on the high seas. The Patria exploded in Haifa harbor. The Sturma was sunk by the Nazis off the cost of Turkey. After the war the Bevin government continued the blockade, disarmed loyal Jewish soldiers, and sent the Exodus 1948 back to the European camps.

You should have mentioned the Conference at Evian before the war when even America refused to offer asylum

Evian Conference

Commenting on the Evian Conference, the German government was able to state how "astounding" it was that foreign countries criticized Germany for its treatment of the Jews, yet none of them opened their doors. Although the events of the violent Kristallnacht ("Night of Broken Glass") pogroms of November 1938 were widely reported in graphic detail, Americans remained reluctant to welcome Jewish refugees and the quotas remained in place. Even efforts by some Americans to rescue children failed: the Wagner-Rogers Bill, an effort to admit 20,000 endangered Jewish refugee children, was not supported by the Senate in 1939 and 1940.

Cynic, your points are well-taken.

I think one of the biggest challenges facing any democracy - let alone one that lives in a warzone - is fear that The People Next Door will somehow threaten or debase us simply by their presence especially if they are *different*.

Segregated communities are still a reality here let alone in the Middle East - even apparently cosmpolitan, seemingly well-integrated American cities still, if you examine them block-by-block, follow patterns of separatism - by color, by ethnicity or national origin and of course by economic class.

I don't know that this will change any time soon either - and nobody is shooting at us from only a few miles away.

Still, assuming *all* Israeli Arabs are trying to impose shari'a on Israeli Jews is a stretch. Many are highly educated, as you say are totally integrated into the economy - into Israeli society - isn't it possible they're just as Israeli as Israeli Jews?

Certainly as you say they are part of the Israeli world, suffer when Israel is attacked - I don't think the Sauds even let Israeli Muslims go on the haj, to Mecca. Israeli Arabs are punished by other Arabs.

This is true also of many people on the Palestinian side of the line - they don't follow the stereotypes either.

There was a story recently on CNN about a physician who lost 3 children in the Gaza incursion - Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish - yet he continues to support peace and he continues to work with his Israeli counterparts. During the bombing he reached out to an Israeli friend who was on-air at the time, on Israeli TV. His anguish was heard throughout the land. I think he's been granted asylum in Israel now.

We have to remember people like him too.

There's another Palestinian man, Mr. Hassan Musa, who has his own Holocaust museum, and he tries to educate his neighbors about the Shoah.

People are reaching out through the blogosphere, trying to exchange ideas, communicate, and get to know each other as people. This goes on even during wars.

It's personal relationships, I think, mutual respect - love even - that fixes torn tapestries -
not fiat, nor ultimatum -

Wildpeace

Not the peace of a cease-fire
not even the vision of the wolf and the lamb,
but rather
as in the heart when the excitement is over
and you can talk only about a great weariness.
I know that I know how to kill, that makes me an adult.
And my son plays with a toy gun that knows
how to open and close its eyes and say Mama.
A peace
without the big noise of beating swords into ploughshares,
without words, without
the thud of the heavy rubber stamp: let it be
light, floating, like lazy white foam.
A little rest for the wounds - who speaks of healing?
(And the howl of the orphans is passed from one generation
to the next, as in a relay race:
the baton never falls.)

Let it come
like wildflowers,
suddenly, because the field
must have it: wildpeace.

~ Yehuda Amichai ~

Sophia, The fact of the matter is that some Zionist Jews are exactly what the BNP is.

Now you can cast blame onto the current British people for the sins of former British people all you want to.

I fully support the right of Israel to exist and as a homeland for Jews and maintained as a Jewish country.

However I dont deny others that right. Which seems to be where Jews elsewhere(Western Nations) do....not that this isnt a consistent position based on group self interest. But others have interests as well.

Im not a big fan of the BNP, but the European indigenous folks have real grievances and the right to a homeland. No matter what punishment you think they may deserve or what grudge you or anyone else on the planet are holding against them from the past.

Sophia, the problem you are having is cognitive dissonance.

You are draping yourself (Jews) with victimization politics which absolves them of being criticized similarly to anybody else(namely the White Europeans). Its ludicrous! Classic double standard.

You owe me an apology.

You arent thinking clearly.

I think that it true that Jews were/are so psychologically scarred from the events of WW2 that they cannot move forward and will not be able to as a people until they do.

BTW, I think that using the denial of Jews assylum pre WW2 as the basis for an open borders policy has been dissasterous for the West and Europe in particular. Its been more than used and abused and the New Left and their radical immigration policies have been dissasterous. The answer to colonization is not reverse colonization....the answer to discrimination is not to discriminate against a different group.

The British and Europeans used to have a policy of forced assimilation, now it is villifed. The so called Stolen Generations in Australia were an assimilation project. Similar programs throughout the world for other peoples and cultures to assimilate. Its not humane to force people to abandon their culture....and its not humane to force indigenous peoples to suffer colonizers.

You are very confused and are weeping crocodile tears. Indeed if British Jews and British Muslims converted to Christianity as a precondition to their immigration to the UK, you would call that a crime against humanity, and rightly so. Islam and Judaism still practice these types of policies...in their homelands.

The key is to treat people fairly, but you dont have to use the government to promote other cultures and peoples. Its the old meaning of the word tolerance...which has morphed into material aid from its original meaning of not persecuting.

You may love the turn that Western Europe took, but its a policy of collective suicide....and your refusal to support such policies for Israel show the complete and utter foolishness of them.

Jews in the Christian West have certainly been treated badly, there is no question about that, but the policies that Jews have advocated for and supported with their votes are not an impartial non hostile policy towards those European Christians. They seek to punish the Indigenous/White European Christian males for percieved crimes and elevate all other peoples over those WCMs....legally. This is the reason that Europe is facing such dire futures. And Leftwingers can laud their program of guilt peddling and double standards, and racist discrimination, the assault on the Western nuclear family...the New Left has much to answer for.

is fear that The People Next Door will somehow threaten or debase us simply by their presence especially if they are *different*.

In my wanderings I certainly did not come across feelings of being debased by other cultures in close proximity - Witness the strong co-operation between kibbutz or moshav and its neighbouring Arab kfar; and even entertaining each other in their homes.
I saw the odd Arab family living in a Jewish neighbourhoods with no hostility shown by either side, and if anything a general willingness at co-existence, also I came across the mixed Jewish/Muslim family, but only in Jewish neighbourhoods because it it is inconceivable for obvious reasons of those families living in Muslim towns and villages.

The only fear blatantly observable in Jews was that of violence emanating from an already hysterical culture.

Still, assuming *all* Israeli Arabs are trying to impose shari'a on Israeli Jews is a stretch. Many are highly educated, as you say are totally integrated into the economy - into Israeli society - isn't it possible they're just as Israeli as Israeli Jews?

Heh!

No, you haven't been to a factory party to celebrate their 21st year of existence and witnessed the confrontation because of wine, apart from all the different soft drinks, was served with the meal.
The snide remarks and even in some cases hostility when the workers were given presents of sweets and delicacies to celebrate the different holidays. (That apart from the sweets and delicacies they received when they celebrated their own holidays - which was not afforded the Jewish employees.)

The obvious intimidation applied, even in Hi-tec firms, by those highly educated but still under the thumb of the Imam brothers/cousins/whatever the insensitive sensitivities applied in that typical zero-sum manner by Mohammad's spawn.

They are integrated into the economy but only as far as they permit. Yes, there is a small minority which prefers a Western type existence but the majority still calls the limits on total integration.
It is not a Jewish determined red line as so many would have us believe.
Trying to be fair and balanced by loading the Israeli side of the scale with PC censorship of the other's behaviour does not help matters.

Striving to force two radically different cultures to exist side by side cannot be done in terms of kumbaya.

EscapeVelocity

Sophia, The fact of the matter is that some Zionist Jews are exactly what the BNP is.

The problem is when that "one" or "some" is used to apply collective guilt. That is what Sophia should be complaining about.

I think that it true that Jews were/are so psychologically scarred from the events of WW2 that they cannot move forward and will not be able to as a people until they do.

Not just WW2 but from way back from before the Inquisition (the blood libel in York in 1189) if you want and everything else that occurred.
It is only the Israeli Jews who have moved forward and seemingly liberated those Jews from Arab countries from the psychosis of dhimmitude while it seems that many of the Jews in America and Europe continue in suspended animation with regard to their liberty, freedom and safety.

Then again a lot of what the Jews are accused of is in many cases due to projection.

I get you Cynik, you and I are not blinded by illusions or utopian visions.

We are different yet can get along, while not having to bow to the others differentness....and not wanting the other to do so either.

Many BNP voters are not what the BNP leadership is, but they still agree on some key issues. Villifying the BNP is not the answer.

The indigenous people of the British Isles have rights and should be respected, not trampled on and treated poorly....made minorities in their own land and disempowered....their wishes villified.

I agree that Jewish persecution as a minority historically is driving their politics in the West, which leads them to support minority rights and priveleges over the majority. And in the final analysis it is a rational position, which is in their tightly defined interests.

However its not in the indigenous or majority populations intersts.

Just as the Arab Muslim Israeli interests are different from those of the Israeli Jew. Could you imagine if millions of European Christians immigrated to Israel and advocated politically and voted for Arab Muslim rights and culture and multicutluralism against the racist supremacist state of Israel and its Jewish oppressors? Well, yes you can, this is exactly what is happening in the West, and being done by Jews(and Ill add not just by Jews but that doesnt let Jews off the hook for their participation in it). I blame the Western Left, and that covers many minority groups who also play victimization identity politics. Interestingly enough, the Jews were leaders in developing victimization identity politics and creating coalitions of politically active victims groups.

To put this in perspective, if this happened (and somewhat is happening and that is why all these Leftwing Jews are up in arms)...to Israel, it would destroy Israel in short order...it would no longer be a Jewish State, but just a place where minorities have priveleges over Jewish people and was heading towards a Jewish minority. These are the policies the Western Left developed in to attack the West and is now applying them to Israel. Which is why Sophia is having such cognitive dissonance.

Cynic seems to see it more clearly.

BTW, I think that Israel itself is causing the cognitive dissonance in Jews. They have their persecuted minority mindset that drives their politics (of course this is a generalization) in Europe and North America, but at the same time they are a majority in Israel, and they get to advocating different policies for Israel than they advocate for say the UK or the US. This lesson in being the majority and the rights of the majority is very valuable, and its part of the reason that I think there are a lot of Jewish neoconservatives. The majority can promote its cultrue and dominate the landscape and cultural space without persecuting minorities or infringing upon their rights. It doesnt have to be a war between minorities and the majority for special priveleges, supremacy or superiority....that doesnt have to be the political landscape....however it is the political landscape of the Western Left, class warfare and its myriad of offshoots, racist, sexist, groupist warfare.