...MJT: You have talked to Hamas people. Should the Israelis or Americans talk to them?

Goldberg: I don't know what they'd get out of it.

MJT: What did you get out of it when you did it?

Goldberg: A first-hand understanding of how they think. People in the United States find it hard to understand how people in Hamas and Hezbollah think. It's alien. It's alien to us. The feverish racism and conspiracy mongering, the obscurantism, the apocalyptic thinking - we can't relate to that. Every so often, there's an eruption of that in a place like Waco, Texas, but we're not talking about 90 people in a compound. We're talking about whole societies that are captive to this kind of absurdity.

So it's very important - and you know this better than almost anyone - to go over there yourself and tape it, get it down on paper, and say "this is what they actually say."

MJT: It's shocking to hear.

Goldberg: Of course it's shocking to hear.

MJT: Sometimes I can't help but wonder if they really even believe it or if they're just saying it.

Goldberg: I was in Afghanistan in 1998, a week after the first fatwa to "kill all the Jews and Crusaders" came out. I was with a bunch of Americans. They were making light of it because it seemed so ridiculous. They were making light of it, I suppose, partly as a psychological mechanism to allow us to continue staying in Afghanistan.

MJT: (Laughs.) Yeah.

Goldberg: People also made fun of it because it seemed so ridiculous. But it's not ridiculous. Just because a belief sounds ridiculous to you doesn't mean it's not sincerely held...