Id like to continue our conversation Sophia. As I think it is a conversation worth having.

Dont know how to contact you, though.

You think that I have attacked Israel. I havent. Im a solid supporter of Israel. I also think that Israel has something to teach Jews, with them being the majority in that country...about respect for the rights of the majority in European countries for example...and not simply the promotion of minority rights and well being.

I think that Solomon is Jewish. I might be wrong about that, but he is Conservative. But he seems to get what I am saying without getting his hackles up about "attacks on Israeli Jews."

I hope you find enough of interest to continue the conversation.

Thanks for the Correction, or is that correction?

What I meant was that he seems to be an Jewish American Conservative....not necessarily an American Conservative Jew.

I'm sorry, E.V., but we are so far apart philosophically I don't think it's a good idea for us to "converse".

This isn't because of my leftish political leanings either. It's because I really believe in Western values.

I am very upset by your attempts to draw a parallel between self-consciously "white" people in Europe and Israeli Jews, especially when the cavaets of "Christian, male and heterosexual" are applied to that as you have done. I am also upset at your implied threats that by NOT identifying with "white" Europeans we minorities will not do so well.

If you think about this for five minutes I think you'll understand why.

I also think your attempts to cast Israel in terms of the odious, all white, Hitler-saluting BNP is appalling and unfair.

If you read Israel's Declaration of Independence you will see how diametrically opposite from that Zionist ideals really are. It's especially appalling given the history of Israel, am Yisroel - the Jewish people - especially at the hands of paranoid, Hitler-saluting facists.

The experiences of the Jewish people and the state of Israel couldn't be less similar than that of "white" Europeans. This isn't just during the Shoah either but predates the Crusades, predates Islam, predates the collapse of Rome. And nor were Jews the only victims, victims of the powerful, the frightened, people who are spiritually weak.

No. Regardless of all the contributions "the others" have made to our culture we're still despised, still told to get in line or else - resented for being a little different, feared, told our history doesn't matter.

In this day and age? Honestly. That isn't "Conservative". That's reactionary.

No. The only way to preserve Western Civilization is to see it in its entirety and that includes our history - all of it, and all of the people who contribute to it.

We are strong enough, creative enough and honest enough to look at our past, accept where we've done good things and where we've done horrible things, and make a vow, right here and right now, to go and do better every day from here on out.

For that reason I also believe that it's just wrong to put people down or deny them sanctuary because of their color, country of origin or religion.

It's fine to say well we should fight the regimes OVER THERE rather than allowing "those people" OVER HERE but where does that leave people who are in trouble now?

I'll tell you where it leaves them: in the same position as the Jews locked out during the Shoah: suffering and dead.

We can do better than that.

Western Civilization is stronger than that.

This time we have to do better than that.

Have we learned nothing from the Shoah? Have we learned nothing from all the other tragedies that have befallen mankind because of cruelty or indifference? And - what of it then - what of our Judeo-Christian values? How do racism, sexism, elitism really stand up to those values?

THEY DON'T.

I'll tell what I hope is weaker than Western Civilization and that's racism - racism, paranoia, hatred, misogyny, religious bigotry and fear.

There's no room for that anymore. Most of us are way beyond it. We just don't see that way any more, we are trying to build bridges not walls.

Nobody is stealing your rights. Nobody is trying to wipe you off the map, nobody has tried to exterminate Europeans except other Europeans.

The presence and history of Africans and Asians, Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists and Jews, women and gays, will not destroy Europe, really it won't.

There's nothing than an open society can't accomodate simply by virtue of being open, being free. Nothing can destroy us except our own fears, nothing can destroy our faith except faith in a false god, in the surface of things.

Western Civilization isn't about whiteness. It isn't about Christianity. It's about creativity, enlightenment, hard work, respect for the individual, respect for others. It's the ability to change and grow and learn - always, the ability to learn.

Our culture isn't about maleness or being a Christian, being European or being "straight".

It really isn't.

It's so much richer, so much more than that so please don't try to justify your fears by claiming that you're defending our civilization.

The State of Israel, indeed Zionism itself, is a state for all its citizens. It does function as a homeland and sanctuary for the Jewish people. It could be a lot more perfect than it is and lots of people are trying to make it so. The people of Israel, Arabs and Jews alike, live in a war zone, they really live with the possibility of destruction and death. They're trying to keep both identity and democracy alive in spite of some formidable obstacles, not least their own fears.

That is not the same thing as what you're trying to justify or imply.

There's nothing wrong with standing up for the values of Western Civilization but claiming that they're elistist, exclusionary or racist values, sexist or misogynist or anti-gay values, is to misunderstand Western Civilization at its most basic and most beautiful.

Have a nice day.

"I'll tell you where it leaves them: in the same position as the Jews locked out during the Shoah: suffering and dead."

I wonder about this. In what way are Mexicans, or others who come to work in the West illegally or legally, for economic reasons (which are good enough reasons to seek solutions elsewhere but hardly constitute life-threatening conditions), comparable to the plight of Jews in Hitler's Europe?

The only example recently that I could find comparable is the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who, having been subjected to a campaign of very real death threats, found that the liberal democracies which she had trusted were all finding excuses not to provide her with sanctuary and safety.

You are right, however, Sophia, about Escape Velocity's strange misconception of Israel and Jews. I think he is saying it mulishly to provoke you and others. I have known him for a few years now and I can tell you that he used to be much more ignorant and bigoted. He has evolved though he has not discarded his deep fear of liberal Jews which might be compared to TS Eliot's fear of "free thinking Jews". He thinks with Israel's plight he has hit the jackpot of arguments against liberal Jews. Which just goes to show how little he understands Israeli Jews, or democracy, for that matter.

Jon Stewart has really never been pro Israel nor is he comfortable with his Judaism. It's something to mock. Of course no one should look to the Daily Show for their philosophical input any more than they should look to The Onion. Be that as it may, Stewart is firmly in the leftist camp and all that it implies vis a vis Israel: A nice place if only it weren't so "Jewish".

I dont know where to begin with your current response Sophia.

You seem to advocate for the double standard, you are just angry that Israeli Jews are now having that double standard applied to them. I understand the anger at those that would deny you your cultural heritage and your right to perpetuate and protect that heritage and celebrate it.

Ill expand later...but leave you with this for now.

Lets look at Columbus Day. That National Holiday has been under assault in the US, because other groups (besides Europeans) see it as a great tragedy...namely the Americans that were already here.

Now lets take Israel's Independence Day. Should Israel not celebrate it, and instead comiserate over the Nakba? In the spirit of multicultuarlism and deference to minorities.

I see bigotry in you, Noga, and Solomon. Tribalist loyalties, circling the wagons. And I am not an enemy of Jews or Israel. On a broader scale this refusal to see European cultural assertiveness as anything other than rank hatred and agression towards other groups, is exactly what has it silenced on the Center Mainstream Right...which is leading to the empowerment of exactly what you fear...the BNP and their ilk....where you can claim..."See, I told you so," and feel morally superior.

This is a real problem I am talking about. It might be a golden age for minorities in teh West, however, it wont be for long, because of the way you have pushed racist and groupist identity politics to the fore while excluding groups from participation. Reverse discrimination and oppression and subjugation isnt the remedy to past discrimination, oppression, and subjugation...it just continues the cycle. The only differnce between the Western Left and the BNP is that the groups that they advocate special rights, privileges and protections for.

More later.

Even though you continue with the Leftist line, which seeks to diminish European Christians from the heart of Western Civilziation and replace it with other groups. I still think this discussion is worth having, because if you and the Western Left dont get it, we are going to see the continued rise of the sort of groups that really are the strawman of your perpetual fearful paranoia.

Sophia said

I am very upset by your attempts to draw a parallel between self-consciously "white" people in Europe and Israeli Jews, especially when the cavaets of "Christian, male and heterosexual" are applied to that as you have done. I am also upset at your implied threats that by NOT identifying with "white" Europeans we minorities will not do so well.

----

Alright here is a paragraph full of misunderstandings, mostly monsters from your own id. My imprecise language (and the difficulty inherent in trying to discuss these issues broadly) also leads to this misunderstanding, no doubt.

The reason why people are becoming self consciously white, is that that physical marker is being used to discriminate against them in employment and education opportunities and for welfare benefits, low income housing alotments..etc. Just like Jews are self consciously Jewish, because of threats to their equality and well being real and percieved. Yet you think one is inherently more evil than the other. This is where you apply the double standard and retreat into your tribalist mindset, in which you look to protect Jews from the other, circle the wagons, and refuse to discuss rationally and reasonably.

Christianity has been under constant relentless, antagonistic, aggressive, and disproportionate criticism for the last 50 years in Western Civilization Sophia. The male has as well. Furthermore, you are the one that keeps bringing up homosexuals. I only once brought them up in my example of the "85% diverse" annectdote, in that a Homosexual White Christian Male would be included in the Diversity mix, while the Hetero White Christian Male would be in the 15 percent that are still lingering around and effort needs to be made to replace them so that 100 percent diversity would be achieved (the total exclusion of White Christian Heterosexual Males = 100% Diverse).

Im not making threats to minorities, that if they dont identify with white Europeans....they will not do so well. However Israeli law, as it stands now, means that minorities that dont identify as Jews will not do so well. You dont seem to have a problem with that (which is evidence of your bigotry and tribalism or whateever is good for Jews is what you advocate, thus your double standard for Israel and European countries with regards to minority rights).

BTW, I dont think its evil to identify and advocate for and participate in supporting your own tribe or culture...for anyone. However you do, with regards to certain groups and ethnicities and races with regards to Europe and the Anglo Nations....which is the gist of our disagreement or whatever you want to call it.

Im pretty much a standard American Conservative. Equality before the law, equality of opportunity, and individualism. That all groups be able to mind their own business. That the proscribed groups also be allowed to have their own history, without having to kowtow to other groups sensibilities, because lets face it, the history coming out of the African American studies department doesnt take into account the sensibilities of certain groups, now does it. Ditto the Women's Dept., ditto the Native American studies Dept.

You are a supporter of what amounts to a crime against humanity for certain groups and ethnicities in Europe and the Anglo Nations. You dont apply the same logic to Israel (however other Leftwingers do and thus you are all disgruntled about it).

I think that Solomon has come to see this (and Evan Sayet)...and many others...but you are still clinging to the New Leftist mindset which is hostile to certain groups while claiming to be inclusive and celebrating diversity. You do to Europeans, whites, males, Christians and Christianity, what others are doing to Jews and Israel....and you dont see the hypocrisy...because you are embedded in a tribalist paranoid or self interested mindset.

Now dont get me wrong. I am certainly self interested...but I readily admit it, while others play this disingenuous game that they are for diversity and against racism and bigotry, while they spout bigoted and racist, sexist policy positions and reasoning.

I think we should recognize that "the other" has interests in protecting, promoting, their culture and tribe or group affiliations. Which leads us to what type of system should be set up so that everyone can do their own thing....and let the chips fall where they may. The problem with the Western Left is that they think that all cultures are equal and thus should produce the same success and wealth and any inequality is the result of some kind of chicanery or underhandedness....and thus seek to re-distribute wealth to groups that are less successful because of their culture. Thus in effect subsidizing failure or failed cultures and behaviors. And when you subsidize something, you get more of it. While at the same time punishing successful cultures and behaviors....thus making adopting of those behaviors and cultural values/traits less desireable. The effect is human regression, not human progress.

More later...

Hi Noga,

With regard to immigrants I was thinking particularly about people fleeing persecution, and there are many - for example women fleeing FGM and other oppressive practices, dissidents and more liberal thinkers who've come here (for example) from Iran, people who've been left homeless or without a family leader due to warfare in Iraq, people suffering from famine - real famine - genocide even and civil war in Africa.

I would say their plight is truly desperate.

In the case of Mexico and other nations to the south, conditions are often so bad that people - millions of people - live in cardboard boxes on the outskirts of great cities like Rio and Mexico City. There has been awful political repression and violence also throughout Latin America, with countless victims. 2,000 people have been killed this year in Juarez alone, right on the border with El Paso, Texas.

As you know there's still a starkly divided class system in much of Latin America, with a few very rich even aristocratic people and lots of very poor people and quite a thin layer of middle class and professional people, and this is inherently not a stable situation and it does affect us here as well. We see the results not only in the number of people who want to come here but also in the form of drug gangs and cartels.

It's also put demogogues like Chavez into power, people think things can't get worse so they swing too far and often violently to the other extreme. Mexico for example has had not one but many revolutions.

However, in the case of Latin America I think there's hope through diplomacy and economic investments and trade and also, though, through some honesty about past relations between North and South America.

This includes admitting our meddling in local politics to the point of starting wars and also predatory business practices. If you look at American history from a Mexican or South American point of view you get a different angle from the one we've been taught or assume is right.

IMO we should concentrate on working within own hemisphere, I think that's extremely important. More to the point it's doable.

But don't you think the situation for people in subSaharan Africa is a lot worse probably? because the economic situation there is so bad, people have no idea how bad. There have been decades of drought and famine, war and disease and terrible leadership and environmental disaster.

I wish the UN would focus more on these issues and also that it had more actual resources but there again they're fighting and have been victimized by some awful local governments. UN workers come under attack and major powers like China keep governments like the Sudan's in business.

Even in the case of Iran, people today at the 30th anniversary of the American embassy debacle were flying banners begging for Obama's help but he's stuck more or less because in order to do a deal with the nuclear materials he has to deal with the government in power - it's really bad because the dissidents need our help.

For people who increasingly are coming under pressure from religious extremists, it's hard to say what to do. The Soviet Union broke its economic back and thousands of soldiers in Afghanistan and still the influence of al Qaeda and the Taliban grew.

Maybe they grew partly because of Soviet interference but maybe not, maybe it's just a reaction against modernity, against the outside world, against change. Certainly our funnelling of arms and money to them when they were fighting Soviets helped them increase their power.

So that begs the question, what are we to do?

I'm worried about our own future let alone that of our soldiers' if we can't get some meaningful support from NATO but also Russia and China, for example, in working against extremism in Central Asia. This is obviously threatening people in the West as well, if only because the Persian Gulf is strategically vital but also because of terrorism.

As an aside people forget that the Left was the first target of the Islamists. People should read Halliday about this - it's wierd that some on the Left are buying into the idea that oppressive theocractic systems are somehow modern or desireable.

Anyway I'm very worried about the people in Pakistan and Afghanistan and of course Iran. There's oppression in Syria; Egypt is threatened by extreme forms of Islamism that threaten thought as well as individual freedom. Lebanon is shaky. The Turkish government is going in an Islamist direction.

Every time I read about a bomb blast in Iraq I cringe - these are simple, ordinary people who are being attacked.

Their lives are certainly endangered though almost casually, they're killed almost accidentally which makes their situation different from the Jews or Roma in WWII but they're in great danger nevertheless. This is especially true for interpreters and other "collaborators" who've tried to help us.

In Afghanistan the Taliban actually cut off the fingers of people who voted. It's ironic because we armed and funded the mujeheddin when they were fighting the Soviets and now they're attacking us and also their own people in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

What to do?

It's one thing to say, we should stop oppression, we should stop genocides; it's another thing altogether to actually do something meaningful! and meanwhile the US has precious little real support or help, even from NATO allies.

This situation is worsened by the problem of the UN and its lack of unity and rationality concerning human rights, plus the fact that many "unaligned" and Islamic nations feel we're attacking them or have betrayed them in the past.

It isn't hard to see why they might feel this way when you read Zbigniew Brzezinski who admits the Afghan situation was created deliberately in order to provoke a Soviet intervention. In his view it was totally acceptable to sacrifice Afghanistan in order to harm the Soviet Union.

Frankly I don't even have words to express my disgust with this sort of politics.

Sophia said...

I also think your attempts to cast Israel in terms of the odious, all white, Hitler-saluting BNP is appalling and unfair.

If you read Israel's Declaration of Independence you will see how diametrically opposite from that Zionist ideals really are. It's especially appalling given the history of Israel, am Yisroel - the Jewish people - especially at the hands of paranoid, Hitler-saluting facists.

The experiences of the Jewish people and the state of Israel couldn't be less similar than that of "white" Europeans. This isn't just during the Shoah either but predates the Crusades, predates Islam, predates the collapse of Rome. And nor were Jews the only victims, victims of the powerful, the frightened, people who are spiritually weak.

No. Regardless of all the contributions "the others" have made to our culture we're still despised, still told to get in line or else - resented for being a little different, feared, told our history doesn't matter.

-----

See, here is what Im getting from you. Any pride or tribalism or concern for cultural preservation from Europeans = Nazism. And thus those evil groups must be proscribed from participating in the diversity celebration...unless they are forced to celebrate other peoples cultures, which is good. If other peoples are forced to celebrate their European Ethnic culture then that is evil.

From Jews long ill treatment by European Christians, you are unable to forgive them and move forward together in equality and shared respect. Your paranoia drives you. (and lets face it, European Christians arent Arab Muslims.)

Im not asking you to love the BNP, hell I dont like the BNP, they are nasty socialists and racists of the worst sort. I asking you to realize why support for them is rising...because of this proscription and reverse discrimination. The reason why they are gaining traction is that any discussion about reverse discrimination, criticism of multiculturalism or minority groups is labeled as racist, etc and thus the discussion is shut down as people fear for their jobs and livelihoods and good standing in the community. But all youve done is silence real concerns...and left people with real concerns nowhere to go but the SECRET ballot box and the BNP to express them....however they may detest the BNP racist haters and socialists. To put it another way, if the NAACP wasnt allowed to exist and shouted down as racist, then support for the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam would expand. And really, if not for Islam and mass Muslim immigration (combined with the proscription and the reverse discrimination and "diversity" non assimilationist multi-culturalism)....they woulding hold their nose and vote BNP. Because Islam and Muslims are a whole nother ball of wax...than these other minority groups...lets call it orders of in your face magnitude.

As to this...

"The experiences of the Jewish people and the state of Israel couldn't be less similar than that of "white" Europeans."

Uh, in the United States the experiences of the Jews are just like the myriad of other immigrants to this country. The Irish Catholics didnt have a grand ole time either you know. Please spare me, the Jewish suffering narrative. I realize that Jews have suffered. I more than realize how it clouds Jewish minds.

Im not down on Israel. I dont wake up daily and commiserate on Isarel's flaws, or where they may be lacking in minority rights with regards to other Western Nations. My religious heritage comes from Jews and Judaism....which includes metaphysics, ethics, philosophy, and a myriad of other deep cornerstones of being. Im not anti Jew.

My problem is that the majority of American Jews are anti Me and my groups, religion, and tribes...and advocate policies which are discriminatory against Me an My Groups. Its not me its YOU. I dont advocate policies that discriminate on the basis of race or sex or religion. I dont advocate policies that see peoples not having the majority religion or skin color or whatever as more valuable than those that have the majority.

Are we making any headway?

The problem with Jon Stewart is that he does not know enough to see how he was used.

He did not ask Barghouti what he wants to achieve with that "non violence " method.
Where will the borders with Israel be for example. Why is the non violence method not being used now ? what are they waiting for ?

As to Noga's assertion of my deep fear of liberal Jews.

Its preposterous. I have deep disagreements with the Western New Left, of which American Jews, the vast majority of which are Western New Leftwingers, and in the coalition of minority groups seeking not equality or opportunity or equality before the law, but re-distribution of wealth and reverse discrimination, basically racist policies....while at the same time the Jews have one more branch of antagonism towards Christianity and Christians.

I wish this werent so...but it is.

Now when the proscribed groups join the game that the Western New Left has played so effectively in the Western democracies, of promotion of your tribes and groups and identities interests. Then its Naziism and oppression and racism.

Not all Jews are the same obviously. But the vast majority of American Jews support the New Left and its policies of the last 30 years.

If that is the game that you want to play, then dont get all huffy when "the others" that you dont like join in.

As for me, Im trying to get you to see the logical result of that game. A result that is coming about in Europe with groups like the BNP.

There is a better way. But alas...

What say you Solomon?

Noga has dismissed me, with some classic "disloyal Jew" stereotype.

Sophia, continues to villify certain groups in Europea and AngloNations and think that they deserve everything they have gotten from the New Left and a worldwide gaggle of minority interest groups and them some....while claiming exemptions for current Israeli behavior as anti racist and anti supremacism because its a reaction to past wrongs, racism, and supremacism.

What say you?

I'm not going to try to unravel all of this. I've lost the thread awhile back. You both type too much, and I'm not sure you're even speaking each other's languages at the moment.

I will say that Sophia is a little too "liberal" with regard to foreign immigration for me. Not everyone is escaping a Holocaust, and not all of them are coming here to adapt. European-style multiculturalism and the immigration and special interest industry have also made it difficult to pressure people to adapt to us, rather than the other way around, so our defenses are down and it's no longer enough to say we have nothing to fear and are strong enough to handle any influx. I've written about this before and don't feel like going on at length about it.

As for you, you talk about race too much. I'm going to leave aside what's going on in Europe and just address American Western Civ and politics. The American gift to the world is that our society is based upon ideas, and not in any way genetics. If you are willing to sign on to the program, completely, nothing else matters. We don't talk about White culture because there really isn't one. In theory it might sound OK, but in practice, when you start talking this way, it sounds like racism, because in general, the racists are the only ones who say such things (yes, you make a point, and I do read you, when you talk about a White culture coming into existence as a result of persecution -- to put it in short form).

I think it makes much more sense to oppose American Leftists (they are decidedly illiberal) by opposing their excesses and appealing to and standing up for basic American values. Race talk doesn't help.

I see Escape Velocity has met his match, in Eddie!

Nwo (EV): I have not dismissed you. I am however getting a bit tired of your cavalier interpretation of Israel whose greatest worth, to you, is in being the enemy of your enemy. This is why I have no use for your kind of friendship. It is meaningless. It is not based on good will towards the plight of Israeli Jews. It is not based on understanding, or sympathy or even any deep knowledge of Jewish history. It is a seething bristling type of friendship, which is not really friendship but hostility in another guise.

Your repeated "enjoy" to punctuate your apocalyptic vision of Israel's end borders on the sadistic. You have done it several times on my blog and I am truly fed up with it. Your paranoia that Jews are out to destroy the US from within would not be out of place in some of the more outlandish Arab blogs I have been visiting recently.

I agree with everything Solomon said in his comment, both to Sophia and yourself.

Well, thanks for the reply.

What a political party or the American Conservative Movement should be doing to promote ideas, and us discussing things openly(at least attempting to) are 2 different things.

If you ask me Black Americans talk about race too much, and many are out and out racists. These racists are coddled by the Western Left and their sense of victimhood and resentment stoked to provide votes for the Western Left which promises them special hand outs, rights, set asides and priveleges. Its almost everything that is wrong with the Western New Left Coalition, combined into a single pathological expression.

I totally agree that the Anglo Colonial Nations are different, especially the US. Because the indigenous folks arent white. One wonders if European indigenous will be afforded special protections under UN law and European Law, like the Maori in New Zealand or the Abos in Australia, Native Americans in the US and Canada?

Im not particularly a racialist...its cultures that matter.

As regards to the American ideas and way....I agree with you. However the Western Left is in full assault mode on Classical Liberalism and therefore the Constitution and Ideas that represent the ideals of the US. Lets face it, Affirmative Action is just a step towards Jim Crow. The little kid that grows up in the South in a neighborhood that is 50/50 white and black, faces enormous challenges, and then has to be better than half of the neighborhood with black skin just to qualify for a slot in Uni, or on to the job market where he is also discriminated against. Not only that but he is male...a double discrimination....with the 50 percent of the population that is female.

The correct to an injustice is not to inflict an injustice back. The correction to racial and sex discrimination is the removable of racial and sex discrimination, not transferring the discrimination to another group or sex.

But this is really a side show to the cultural assault. It does seem like Sophia thinks that Western Civilization and European Nations and Cultures are so strong that they can survive any amount of non assimilating immigration, and a continuance of discriminatory policies which promote others over certain groups. Rome fell, in the final analysis because it was over run with immigrants that didnt assimilate...fractured the Empire and Republic which collapsed into tribalist areas. It took a long long time for the Roman Catholic Church to rebuild a semblance of what was lost.

I could no doubt write less and be more eloquent. Couldnt we all. But sometimes it takes a lot of words to try to impart some sort of nuance...else people that are distrustful of you will jump to conclusions, erect the familiar strawman and dismiss you without any communication really taking place. It takes time and words to understand.

BTW, Im delighted that Noga now thinks of me as at least a semi-knowledgable bigot. One day, Ill be a knowledgable bigot, like her and Sophia! LOL! In friendly jest of course. I love Noga, although she still distrusts me, if/when push comes to shove.

Exit Question: Is there such a thing as the "disloyal Christian" or "disloyal Muslim" in Israel? ;)

Anyways, keep up the interesting site. I enjoy the articles you gather. Dare I say it, I enjoy the company of Jews, though they they have their irky quirks. Is that a generalization too far?

First of, I clearly dont blame Jews, other than the fact that they majority of them vote for the Leftwing parties and are on the Left....which clearly is hostile to me and my affiliated cultures and groups.

There is plenty of finger pointing to go around, including the large group of Leftwingers from mine own idenity groups. Many of them self hating, guilt ridden to the point of mental pathologies, and so on and so forth.

Escape Reality,

The majority of europe are White Christians, who as a majority vote for leftist, socialist, progressively mentally ill parties that work to undermine europe.

Have fun!

Noga,

Your repeated "enjoy" to punctuate your apocalyptic vision of Israel's end borders on the sadistic. You have done it several times on my blog and I am truly fed up with it. Your paranoia that Jews are out to destroy the US from within would not be out of place in some of the more outlandish Arab blogs I have been visiting recently.

-----

I dont think, Ive said that once in reference to the destruction of Israel or wishing the destruction of Israel. In fact I support Israel and as Jewish Majority and Jewish Cultural State. The problem is that most Jews dont return the favor to the peoples of Europe, now do they? The double standard that Sophia fully illuminated and fully supports.

On that site, you know where they are all atwitter about the EU Court ruling that Crucifixes traditionally on the walls of Italy's schools are a crime against humanity and human rights violation and have ordered them taken down. Would these folks be cheering if the same had happened in Israel, with the ruling that Jewish symbols in Israeli schools are unbearable human rights violations? Would you? What about Native American schools, is stripping Native American schools of Native American religious symbols progressive,or an assault on their culture? Indeed who's human rights are being abused by the EU Court ruling, the indigenous Italians, Id say.

The Enjoy comments were about the rise of the BNP, directly attributable to the policies of the Western Left that have been prominent for the last 40 years, reaching the level of zeitgeist all across the West. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Im trying to get people to see sense, however they are rejecting it and continuing down the path that leads to the ugliest of outcomes, the rise of BNPs style parties across the Europe and the Anglo Nations. That kind of arrogance is contemptible.

Furthermore, Im tired of Jews being so suspicous and assuming the worst in people. That Im not a scholar on Jewish history, traditions, culture, or Israels and law and the minutiae of Israeli Jews, doesnt make me a shallow ally of Israel. Good Lord! Given that attitude all the US soldiers that fought in WW2 were right to be despised by the French and the French treat us in such an ingrateful manner.

It is not based on good will towards the plight of Israeli Jews. --- Noga

That is just slanderous. But I think that it is symptomatic of the Jewish paranoia, a failing I all to often see in Jews, so much so as to make it typical. But when both the Western Left and Muslims are on full frontal attacks on you, then the paranoia is understandable. But it seems that I keep understanding Israeli and Jewish foibles and concerns, but that doesnt seem to be a 2 way street.

Jews are very difficult to get along with. You can be the staunchest supporter of Israel, and stil be viewed as a potential Final Solution supporter...ready to man the Cyclon B Showers at the drop of the hat.

In that paranoia and insecurity, lies lots of trouble for everyone.

I heard that Netanyahu put US military secrets and technology on the line, to get the Obama Administration to back down on the Settlements issue. Good on him. Hillary Clinton's latest visit to the Middle East was quite clumsy and weak, wasnt it?

PS - Did you just call me the "disloyal non Jew?"

aka the "free thinking goy"

Escape Reality,

"EU" Court?

Who sits on the "EU" Court?

JOOOZ? Israelis? Zionists?

Or your fellow "White Christians"?

EV, Blame yourself for your failures, not others.

EV, your new masters call you DHIMMI.

You sound like you'll get used to it.

Sophia,

However Israeli law, as it stands now, means that minorities that dont identify as Jews will not do so well.

What are you saying; that Israeli law restricts the non-Jew?
Now please expand on that and explain why.

Noga,

He has evolved though he has not discarded his deep fear of liberal Jews

So am I deeply fearful, especially of the Pappes, Judts et al and that Jstreet crowd.
And those Soros types who reject their Jewish origin, helped the Nazis confiscate Jewish property and now finance Goldstone indirectly.

Just read some British blogs and find out what's lurking there for naive Jews because with the demonization of Israel and its Jews comes, once again, the demonization of the collective.
There are plenty of those nutters creating a climate where it is OK to openly express antisemitism and this has been apparent for some years now in Europe.
Still there are those who fail to see it.

EV,

Exit Question: Is there such a thing as the "disloyal Christian" or "disloyal Muslim" in Israel? ;)

The churches did a lot to help the PLO running arms and explosives by none other than high officials in their official cars (e.g. Hilarion Capucci) into the West Bank even as the PLO was slaughtering Christians in Lebanon, and those officials continue preaching their opposition to the Jews from the safety of Jerusalem
Sabeel with its replacement theology and also to improve its standing with the world brown noses the Muslims and attacks verbally and diplomatically anything to do with the State and puts the Christians in a "funny" light and reminds the Jews (and there are many still with numbers tattooed on their arms) of Spain and Portugal and Germany and the Crusades and ....
The Muslims, excluding the Druse and Circassians, whose religion of Islam is replete with everything to wipe the face of the Earth clean of Jews, whatever Sophia might think of multicultural diversity are active all the time with illegal acts and their political representatives with seditious statements and acts.

Actually Syria and the town of Hama is one example of what the minority Alawite sect controling the country did to the Sunni town. Pakistan is another example of diversity. Nobody today discusses the millions of Bengalis they slaughtered, in what is now Bangladesh.
Nobody really puts the Lebanese situation under the microscope to examine just how Christian, Druse, Sunni ans Shia diversity plays out each day. Certainly no kumbaya moment.

Cynic, Ill leave it up the Western Left to document Israel's discrimination and unequal treatement of minorities. They seem to have a gusto for it.

Immigration policy is a prime example.

Here is just one example...this one by the US State Department...

US: Israel discriminates against non-Jews

Israel continues to discriminate against its religious minorities legally, financially and culturally, according to a US State Department review on worldwide religious freedom released on Monday.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=235205

Putting aside violence for a moment....

It does seem that Christians and Muslims are disloyal to the state of Israel. Are non violent Christians, Jews for Jesus, and Muslims that are free thinkers and are fighting against discriminationi against them, inequality in the positions of power, employment, and cultural equality, disloyal. Isnt that just democracy in action, where they are advocating for their well being and rights against their would be oppressors which seek to maintain political dominance and the Jewish power structure in Israel?

Once a solid political coalition is developed and the Israeli Jewish Left joins with these minority groups to not only promote equality before the law, but in fact implement Affirmative Action, where Israeli Jews are discriminated against in favor of minority groups....promoting "diversity" while really promoting everybody and their culture over the Jewish majority, and breaking the racist immigration policies to open the floodgates to Christians and Muslims.

You see how that surpasses equality before the law, and equal rights, and respect for human rights and becomes an anti Jewish coalition?

We are 85% diverse, once we get rid of the last 15% of Jewish Heterosexual Males then we will be 100% diverse.

Nothing anti Jewish or discriminatory about that political project/coalition, heh?

Cynic,

Your comment:

Sophia,

However Israeli law, as it stands now, means that minorities that dont identify as Jews will not do so well.

What are you saying; that Israeli law restricts the non-Jew?
Now please expand on that and explain why.

***

I'm not, repeat NOT the person who says Israel is discriminatory. That's EV. He said it in another thread. I was hoping he would go away but alas.

I'm totally against his entire postion, period. I find it scary. It's as close to a neonazi argument as I have seen on a respectable blog.

There is that brief enough?

PS apologies to all for my verbosity. Ha Shem should send me an editor.

But there are issues being raised, for example about immigration, that aren't simple and I've tried to be clear.

One further thought, I agree with the contention that far left Jews and others who've actually overlapped with the far right, whether Western or Eastern far right, are not liberal in any sense and they vex principled, down to earth Leftists as well.

There's a battle on the left and antisemitism is one of the key fault lines but also misogyny, which is a de facto element of some oppressive regimes which certain "leftists" like Galloway seem to endorse simply because they're "indigenous" and/or are seen as victims of the West.

This has resulted in a kind of cultural relativism, moral relativism, that argues against universal human rights.

EV,

Israel continues to discriminate against its religious minorities legally, financially and culturally, according to a US State Department review

You know where maannews comes from I presume.

Some Vietnamese boat people in a perilous situation in the open sea, saved by an Israeli ship, were brought to Israel and given all the freedom to lead a successful life and they are today as far as I can tell fully integrated into the commercial world and socially as well without becoming Jews.
There is a Japanese Christian group who have been running a kibbutz style environment for years.
The Bahais have the most splendid "place of worship with sprawling gardens in prime real estate in Haifa.
A person from Africa who made it across the Sinai to get to freedom 3 or 4 years ago now runs a small shop and is helping other "refugees" from Darfur.
A young Darfurian volunteered for the IDF about two weeks ago as a way to do something for all the help and support he received on getting to Israel.
People from Thailand who come to work as day labourers in the greenhouses on Moshavim get all their national holidays, have a temple where they can pray and also get classes on agricultural techniques using computers etc.
But when it comes to the Arab minorities who have complete control over their religious and educational facilities to do as they want then they are discriminated against.

For those who don't know Maan News is a Palestinian organization.

Didnt know that.

The quote was of a US State Department report, though.

Well, Sophia tarring me with a Neo-Nazi slur is par for the course.

The rise of the BNP and their ilk are assured.

But you can continue to feel good about yourself sticking up for minorities against the evil White European Christian capitalist exploiters and imperialist colonizers. :rollseyes

Sophia continues to proscribe certain groups from participation in identity poltiics...thus denying those groups their humanity and participation in the political establishment of the day.

For shame.

ev, Your bnp british nazi party is directly linked to the swine who sent buzz bombs into London in the 1940's

The only thing that is assured, is your continued failure and defeat.

No decent person is going to side with nazi filth such as yourself. Only shaved head tattooed scum do.