That is nothing, you should see the starving hungry multitudes in the US portrayed by the Big Networks this Thanksgiving week.

Namesake, I'm trying to find a copy of a famous cartoon, one where an Israeli soldier defending a woman is opposed by a woman defending an Arab soldier. If you can find it, please e-mail me a copy or send me the link, thank you very much!

I pasted the Arabic captions onto Google Translate, and one of them said something to the effect of "in spite of the blockade." So it may have been a display of how much they've managed to import in spite of formidable obstacles.

I am wondering how common or how typical these well-stocked these stores are. That's the first thing that comes to mind. I've seen other pictures, I think from this site, of similarly well-stocked venues, even outside of their holidays. But I wouldn't mind getting an overall picture.

Also, I don't have a clear idea of what's going on there. How much is Israel blockading? Are they interrupting the flow of medicines or food supplies on a regular basis, even from the sea? I can understand their sealing the border (and I know Egypt is sealing theirs), but are they blocking most shipments,with only some well-publicized exceptions.

To hear it from one side, the place is closed off almost entirely, and to hear it from the other, the Gazans are doing OK. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between. Sorry for the cliche.

Joanne,

Did you not see the picture of Tony Blair's sister in law buying stuff in a Gaza supermarket with laden shelves while she screamed to the media that the Gazans were starving?

Did you not read how Goldstone was on about Israel destroying a Gazan flour mill to starve the Gazans while the UN verified that flour to the extent of 600Kgs/day/person had passed from Israel into Gaza during the fighting in January?

How much is Israel blockading?
Also ask why Egypt is blockading as they have a common border with Gaza.

Pity your media didn't tell you how Hamas steals be it cement, steel pipes for water etc., for its own use in building tunnels and rockets, creating a monopoly for its clique of bakeries so keeping the proletariat in line.
So Israel does occasionally stop the flow. But why does Egypt not permit the traffic?

Regardless of whether it's Israel or Egypt who's blockading I think the question Joanne raises is pertinent and should be answered straightforwardly.

This is especially important, morality aside, given that poverty is a well-known perhaps universal driver of violence - or its corrolary - apathy.

I have to ask whether the Israeli strategy vis a vis Gaza has been productive, Hamas or no Hamas.

I personally think not. It has done absolutely nothing to mitigate the evil affects of propaganda and war. Instead it's left the door open to extremists with social programs.

As for the crack about hungry Americans - elderly people really are suffering EV and so are other poor communities. Old people and children have done absolutely nothing to deserve hunger, in fact many people are "working poor". There are Walmart employees who live in their cars, countless others who've lost their homes along with their jobs.

I've been one of them - one of the working poor - working my tush off during the recession in the 1980's for example and basically living on lettuce.

So if you think this is funny or that people are faking you can go pee up a rope.

Old people in the US, my dad's generation or people who are just a little older than I am now have taken care of themselves all their lives and find themselves reliant upon food pantries due to the crash. Young people see a bleak future and just won't try anymore - apathy - and violence stalks the streets. Poverty affects people here just as it does in Gaza, in Mexico, in Somalia though we aren't nearly as bad off as most.

Yet.

Don't forget the Dust Bowl or the havoc that's been wrought to the oceans. We aren't immune. The overfishing and drought that cause famine in Somalia could certainly affect America.

On top of that we have this absurd and hateful idea here in the US that poor people deserve their fate, that maybe if they were better people or if God Were On Their Side they wouldn't be poor.

Of course that belies the fact of famine, drought and economic catastrophe which impacts everybody, everywhere, though some are better insulated than others. Billions of people are actually thisclose to disaster. And most have absolutely no control over macro-economics, over bad decisions made by powerful people, yet suffer the consequences nonetheless.

Retirement funds in the US were eaten alive by the stock market crash and homes are worth much less than they were a year ago. Part time jobs that mean the difference between a decent life and the poverty line have been lost, breadwinners have lost their jobs and can't replace them. Sick people have to choose between rent, food, electricity or medicine.

There are farming and mining and mountain communities and communities in the inner cities which have always struggled and now times are even harder for them and joblessness affects the hardworking, the talented, the well-educated, it hurts all of us (not just "slackers") and hunger is a very real problem yes even in America.

I don't understand the lack of compassion whether it's for people in Gaza or the poor in America.

Now let's post some images from markets in Darfur. You know, those Black people the national-progressisten don't care about.

To Solomon2:

The cartoon I have seen is not about an Israzeli soldier defending a woman but about an Israeli soldier standing between danger and craddle with a baby in it versus a Palestinian standing behind a baby in a craddle and firing at the Israeli. Hope this helps.

Sophia,

Regardless of whether it's Israel or Egypt who's blockading I think the question Joanne raises is pertinent and should be answered straightforwardly.

Why don't you go back in time and check on the sequence of events and register what happened. Israel doing what it does, does not do so from momentary neurological synapses.
After Oslo was signed Israel created several industrial poles at crossings into Gaza to provide work for local Palestinians, saving them the time and trouble of traveling to jobs in Israel which they did freely, moving whole factories only to have Hamas and Islamic Jihad bomb and shoot up the places destroying any possible independence the working class might have had. They were forced to become dependent on Hams' "social services".
Israel tried to help and at every attempt to appease the "peace process" they got hurt. They pulled out of Gaza completely only to suffer years of rocket and mortar attacks and many children and adults are suffering from PTSD.

Hamas at every turn has taken advantage of their willingness to turn to violence and created a narrative of blockade where they are basically blockading their fellow Gazans from access to material things while blaming Israel.
From candlelight meetings for your media in the middle of the day to all the other excesses you willingly swallow as dished up by your media.

When the Israeli Jews left Gaza, the state of the art greenhouses
were left for them so that they COULD sustain themselves.

They were destroyed by the Arabs? Hamas? Gazans? Fatah?
Does it really matter?
Israel always gets blamed for their poverty anyway.

Guys I completely agree about Darfur, it's maddening - the situation is maddening but so is the hypocrisy. Also I have been following the timelines and all the events including the destruction of the greenhouses.

I don't think Israel should be blamed for that - of course not - nor for the exploitation of the crossings and the horror of the intifada that not only killed so many thousands of people but destroyed trust that cost people their jobs and freedom of movement not to mention their families and their lives.

However, I do think we should not shy away from the probability that innocent people in Gaza and on the West Bank and of course in Israel are suffering because of extremists rather than through their own actions. Certainly the greenhouses for example employed thousands of people and when they were destroyed those people lost their jobs.

But the victims - the workers - didn't destroy the greenhouses - the radicals did.

I think it's possibly similar to the situation of people in American inner cities - the innocent are trapped by the gangs as well as by poverty and are frequently killed in the crossfire. That doesn't mean everybody in the inner city is a gangbanger does it!

But when people feel hopeless, especially young men, they are much more likely to affiliate with a gang. In Egypt there's evidence that growing poverty and joblessness is helping drive religious extremism.

Certainly this might be true among the Palestinians as well? Therefore dealing with economic and health issues might be a smart move as well as a compassionate one.

In Gaza, water and sewer projects have already been funded I think but the improvements haven't been made - apparently sewer pipes came back over the border in the form of rockets leading to further blockades.

Somehow though, in spite of the obstacles, the water situation in Gaza has to be fixed. People have already died because of sewage issues. It's a Catch-22 because working through these issues seems to require working with Hamas upsetting as that may be.

But losing life is more upsetting!

Also, the problem with the blockades is that, understandable as they are, they haven't stopped the anger, they haven't weakened Hamas and they have punished the innocent along with the guilty.

Finally, pointing fingers at Darfur doesn't change the situation in Gaza. It doesn't help the poor in Israel either for that matter, nor the victims of rocket and other terrorist attacks.

I do agree there's some perspective required especially for people who insist the Palestinians suffer more than anybody on the planet and Israel is more guilty than anybody on the planet.

This is obviously ridiculous. It reflects bias also and I don't blame people for getting angry about it.

In fact, people in Egypt often have trouble just buying bread whereas the UN and other donors effectively support the Gazans and obviously Israel ships food there even during warfare. The inaccuracies about Israel are straight out of the Protocols and they are not only biased but fuel further conflict.

But - regarding the blockades and the poverty i Gaza - is it unreasonable to ask a) what's really happening there and b) if there's something else that could have been or still could be tried or if they could be modified, to ask, if there's a way to help the people which would also help the victims of terror in Israel by improving conditions for the Palestinians?

Children born in Gaza are not responsible for the evils of their elders and nor are innocent people who are harmed by extremism and war.

Isn't there some way to reach out to them, to at least try and lay foundations for a better future?

Children born in Gaza are not responsible for the evils of their elders and nor are innocent people who are harmed by extremism and war.
Isn't there some way to reach out to them, to at least try and lay foundations for a better future?

How, if they are being indoctrinated with the hatred from their mother's milk through TV and school, How?

Firstly one has to remove all those adults inciting.
They are not interested in a better future for their children but in a future where they control everything.
Arafat made that plain when after Oslo he marched into Gaza and started killing those Palestinians who had reached a consensus with Israel on a better future.

Sophia:
Children born in Gaza are not responsible for the evils of their elders.
- - - - - - - - - - -
Israelis are not responsible for the suffering of Gazan children.

The responsibility lies with those "elders" for choosing the path they have taken.

And while your theory of "radicals holding innocents hostage" sounds nice - let's recall that Hamas won a sweeping majority when fair elections were held - running on a platform of continued attacks with the goal of destroying Israel.

And so the policy is carried out - Israelis suffer constant shelling from Gaza. They are unable to go about their business for fear of constant rockets. Tell me - do they qualify as what you call "innocent people who are harmed by extremism and war"?

Do they have a right to defend themselves?

There is a certain static PC thinking - the Palestinians and other victim groups are always poor dears, and are never held responsible for their actions. Someone else is always blamed.

"It's the occupation that causes the attacks" has now become "it's the blockade that makes them so *angry*".

Always someone else's fault.
But that's not the reality.

The first step in improving the situation is to hold aggressors responsible for their aggression - to make it clear that attacks do not pay.

If those who chose aggression must suffer the consequences when their targets defend themselves - it's an unpleasant but necessary lesson.

Agreed, Israelis are also victimized by the terrorists and their radical agenda.

And obviously both state and people have a right to self-defense.

That's what makes this so difficult. It's easy to sit here and criticize and a lot harder to find a different path and I admit that!

Plus, it's impossible to go backwards. The situation is what it is so we're stuck with it.

The question is, now what.

Cynic points out that babies are indoctrinated, we see films and photos of children dressed as suicide/homicide bombers and filled with admonitions to murder Jews and also to continue the violence against Israel ad infinitum.

Also the more moderate factions, Western-leaning and factions empathizing with the Jews and seeking modernity have been attacked not just recently but also as early as the 1930's for sure and maybe before that. So the violence between Palestinian factions is nothing new and often the most radical have prevailed.

I also agree there's a tendency to see "underdogs" as the more sympathetic even if they're bad news.

That's something I want to think about some more. People wanting to help the suffering is part of what makes us human. But what if helping the underdog = helping violent extremists? That's a real problem in the Arab/Israeli conflict. But, it might help pull the radicals' teeth. They flourish where people are poor and feel oppressed.

Also the isolation of the Palestinians, showing them as distinct from other Arabs even from nearby areas has made them appear to be the underdogs. This might be an illusion or at any rate temporary in real world terms but Israel is well-armed and successful and punches above its size so is perceived to be an arm of The Evil Empire if not its driving force (cf The Protocols!)

Clearly then Israel isn't seen as defending itself but rather as victimizing relatively harmless people - and morally we have to ask ourselves - are we?

At root we are still left with this problem: we don't really know the true situation in Gaza. Each side routinely accuses the other of outright lies. People should go find out - unbiased people without an anti-Israel agenda.

We do know, from Jenin, al Dura, etc, that lies are told about Israel, so we tend to discount Palestinian and also NGO sources. However, if there's real suffering there (and I think there is) don't we have a moral obligation to try and help? I know there is help but maybe there should be more?

Would educational materials help? What about airlifting books and music and films? If people can drop bombs they can drop boxes of books.

Also, wouldn't a more open and less reactive policy toward Gaza have helped avoid more tragedy?

Maybe not. Maybe even if the IDF had showered Gaza with books and food packages and medicine and chickens the rockets would have rained down. But maybe not.

I don't know if there's any hope for some hardcore American neighborhoods either other than scattering the people which some Section 8 housing combined with dismantling the projects, where crime was rampant, is trying to accomplish.

But then you wind up with people claiming their world is being destroyed which is true. When the ghettos are torn down and the people scattered they lose the only community they've ever known and that involves a lot of harm too.

It would be easier in the case of Gaza if there was someplace else the people could go, if they wanted to go - or simply if there was more space - part of Egypt, part of the Negev - it's a pressure cooker at this point although claims that it's the most heavily populated place in the world are obviously false.

Nevertheless if we think of Gaza not as full of hardcore enemeies but rather as a place where human suffering is creating violence, as in an American ghetto, maybe we can find a way to go forward that doesn't endanger either Israel or Egypt?

Egypt has to help too though. They originally locked the refugees into the Strip even though many are apparently related to Egyptians. Yet nobody wants to help absorb the people in Gaza. But locking them up forever is a recipe for disaster.

The same thing is true in Lebanon too of course, with the 60 year old refugee camps that are home to generations of people and just like Gaza these towns have been the source of violence against Israel and also against the Lebanese, they're home to extremists also and heavily armed.

The people are both heavily armed, preached at by extremists and obviously living in poverty, they are suffering and they are quite trapped.

Yet where is the rational, merciful solution?

I mean merciful to Israel also.

People don't seem to be thinking very clearly lately.

I think we're locked into a mindset - an either/or mindset - rather than searching for compromises with the bedrock principle of trying to save lives, improve education and health and help people, as individuals, flourish.

"Did you not see the picture of Tony Blair's sister in law buying stuff in a Gaza supermarket with laden shelves while she screamed to the media that the Gazans were starving?"

Here:

http://contentious-centrist.blogspot.com/2008/09/lauren-booths-concentration-camp-chic.html

" Each side routinely accuses the other of outright lies. People should go find out - unbiased people without an anti-Israel agenda."

have you read any of Khaled Abu Toameh's articles?
His writing is a start toward unbiasedness.

http://www.hudsonny.org/mt/mt-cp.cgi?__mode=view&blog_id=1&id=22

I just discovered this article in the Sacramento Bee that says that, according to the United Nations, one in five of Gazans live in "abject poverty." Now you may quickly react by saying that, well, that's the UN for you. Though I'd want to see how those numbers were arrived at, I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand.

Here's the article:

http://www.sacbee.com/846/story/2419003.html

It's actually about how Hamas is ruining the lives of the Gazans. The article also mentions that Hamas wants to conquer all of Israel. But it is not complimentary to the Israelis, either.