Interesting piece.

Not sure what it all signifies - especially in regard to J Street.

I would like to say this though: we should not reject, per se, Arabian and Jewish cooperation.

In fact, that is exactly what is required for Israel's long-term security and for the progress of the Middle East.

And also, Jewish/Arabian cooperation characterized the early days of Zionism.

I think there's a knee-jerk tendency to react against anything Arab, period, and that is a mistake.

The Jewish Left is treasonous and subversive, just like the Euro Western Left.

They arent doing Israeli Jews any favors, rest assured. Giving the Left the benefit of the doubt only hastens the ill that they bring to your community.

Oh enough already. The Israeli left is not "treasonous" and neither is the American left - they simply have a range of opinions which differ from the Right in some ways and in others overlap with them.

Democracies by definition are full of people with different opinions.

If everybody thinks alike that is a totalitarian state, not a democracy.

You are extremely confused. Classically liberal Protestant Christian Conservatives are not totalitarians.

It's the Western Left that is enamored with the perfection of man and the state and totalitarianism....the centralization of power and the exercizing of it, to promote utopian visions. Sacrificing man to those visions.

Destroying the nuclear family is not a "simple difference of opinion," for example.

You can make your own choices for your life, within the system that I promote. However the system that you promote, seriously limits my choices, subordinated to what you feel is the good. AKA totalitarianism.

Have a good day!

Sophia, Your point is well taken, but there any evidence this is a true peace gesture and not one designed to undermine Israel.

I would like to say this though: we should not reject, per se, Arabian and Jewish cooperation.

Sophia,

You appear so desperate that you are clutching at straws.
There is no integrity in this "cooperation" relationship.
The Saudis are using every means possible to rid themselves of the Jews in the Middle East.

Oh enough already. The Israeli left is not "treasonous" and neither is the American left

Like protesting the security fence by participating in its destruction at places like Bilin and providing support in all its senses for the enemy?

No not treasonous like some of the Arab MKs who go to Damascus to discuss strategy but certainly stupid enough to sacrifice the lives of their own in the fog of Kumbaya. (or should I spell it Quumbaya?)

Maybe not treasonous in its accepted meaning but certainly stupid enough to inflict on us legacies like Carter's apocalyptic sect in Iran; Weinberger and Baker's mess in 83 Lebanon that permitted the entry of Iran through its proxy Hezbollah which has caused untold misery for millions.

First place: there is the left and there is the far left and there is the loony fringe left which overlaps with the loony fringe right albeit with some variations, mostly concerning religion and property but otherwise equally radical.

But these are the wingnuts. Let's talk about normal people, who are the majority albeit with a lot of various opinions.

The mainstream liberal/left is no wierder than mainstream conservatives. We do however view certain matters differently, for example class, environment and in some cases human rights, which does not make us "traitors" in any sense.

Also there are, broadly speaking, authoritarian right and left and libertarian right and left.

For example there is no comparison between the average Labor Party leftist/liberal and a serious Leninist anymore than one can claim the average American Conservative or British Tory is a fascist.

It's wrong for members of either wing to assume that everybody on the other side of the aisle is a wingnut.

So can we back away from this baloney please?

The Israeli left, like the American and European left (and right) reflects a broad range of ideas and includes mainstream ideas similar to our Democratic Party, all the way to outright antizionists who also appear among the ultra-religious.

So what? This is the point of a democracy is it not? Is it "treason" all of a sudden to dissent? I should hope not!!! (especially among Jews!)

Opinions are not treason. Treason means you are actually betraying your country, not trying to modify it or asking questions about its history or its past or current policies.

For example an American who studies the history of the Native Americans is not a traitor is he? So how is an Israeli sensitive to the Arabs and their history in any sense a traitor?

Regardless of the bigotry that often emanates from so-called proPalestinians, Jews and Arabs are in fact overlapping people with language, history, customs and religion that are intertwined. We do not have to echo the bigotry that is directed toward us, do we?

And -doesn't progress come from challenges to Officialdom? Look at science as an example which has constantly challenged preconcieved ideas (the sun revolves around the earth, the earth is flat, so forth) but also anti-slavery movements and the Civil Rights laws.

In fact I would say it's treasonous to the very idea of democracy to suggest that we all march in lockstep or be afraid of asking questions and looking at things from different angles.

Part Two: The Security Barrier

There is plenty to be said about the security barrier. It has reduced the death toll, that's a fact.

Many argue however that it also constitutes a huge source of trouble for local Palestinians and also that it cuts across their territory (disputed territory if you like.)

Farmers are cut off from their fields, for example but also the security barrier reflects an us/them mentality that sadly indicates a desire simply to ignore the people east of the barrier altogether.

That's unfortunate in my opinion, on many levels. It argues against any kind of long-term reconciliation. The same attitude alas is also reflected among many Palestinians and other Arabs (etc) who simply want us to disappear.

Both ideas seem to me counterproductive and shortsighted but also, very sad. What this essentially does is create a big ghetto for Jews in the Middle East, for one thing and it also cuts off contact with the Israelis, which can hardly build greater understanding.

The only Israelis many Arabs see are soldiers and/or unwanted, sometimes abusive settlers.

Is this what we want? Or do we want to communicate and interact with others and vice versa? Do we want to see them in the round and have them see us as the normal human beings we are?

Therefore protesting the security barrier's placement and even its very existence is not treason.

It does suggest a different philosophy toward the Palestinian people, perhaps one that sees their rights as more significant than the security concerns.

It also supports the idea that people on both sides of the line really can get along and coexist peacefully.

The security barrier says in effect that's impossible.

Personally I think Palestinian rights are very important and so is the possibility of coexistence, in fact I think that's the most desireable outcome.

But I also think that preventing terrorist attacks is vitally important.

Therefore this is a complex argument and it's foolish and blind simply to dismiss various opinions.

As for Arab cooperation with Israel: are you so sure the Saudis are just trying to get rid of the Jews? Can you stereotype Saudi opinion like that? I don't think it's that easy, similarly there are people in Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan and other Arab states who aren't antisemitic or even anti-Israel although I agree they are in the minority, this is also true of Persia.

But in a mirror image I also see an alarming tendency among some people in the West including Israelis and American Jews to panic at the very idea of working with Arabs.

Sadly all too many Arabs feel the same way about us.

Don't you think it's time people of vision and good will started working against this reactionary trend and all this fear?

I think Western Leftists should be given a country of their own, where they can torment each other, and leave other people alone.

After they destroy their country with mass immigration of Third Worlders, combined with moral and cultural relativism, communist economic policy, and multiculturalism. Then we can have the definitive answer that their ideology is a complete failure and others wont have to suffer for it.

Rolls eyes.

Regardless of the bigotry that often emanates from so-called proPalestinians, Jews and Arabs are in fact overlapping people with language, history, customs and religion that are intertwined.

And two distinct cultures miles apart. there might be some words that are the same, similar or just sound the same but the meaning is distinct for each culture. Just as there are the same "similarities" between Portuguese and Romanian.

The overlapping people are those who were forced to convert to Islam. Today they bare (pun intended) no resemblance to the others who maintained their culture and faith.

The intertwined religious aspect is what Mohammad took from Judaism and Christianity for his own.

Sophia is either a very credulous person or a disingenuous one, saying as she does, "Interesting piece. Not sure what it all signifies - especially in regard to J Street."

"Sophia is either a very credulous person or a disingenuous one, saying as she does, "Interesting piece."

Neither. She is hopeful that somehow her friendliness and compassion towards the Arab POV will be reciprocated.

She is, I'm afraid, bound towards disappointment.

I have recently been visiting Arab blogs written in English. Most of my comments are deleted there. They are quite incapable of dealing with any dissent from the grand narrative. They are willing to tolerate a Jew who agrees with their delusional view of how good Jews had it in Arab lands before Israel. They are very decisive about Jews or anyone else who reminds them of the real history. That view is just deleted.

Here is one example:

http://dubai-jazz.blogspot.com/2009/12/berlin-and-israel-wall.html

I have had a few futile exchanges of this type. There is no question of availability of books and resources in Arabic. These bloggers are well versed in English, revel in their American-brand colloquialisms. They are not inhibited by the scarcity of books in Arabic about Israel.

Here is another example:

http://bujassem.blogspot.com/2009/09/cartoon-of-day.html

This, too, is illustrative of my point above:

http://bujassem.blogspot.com/2009/09/unuclear-israel.html

BTW, Sophia is quite right about Iranians; they are not anywhere as antisemitic as Arabs. at least from my own experience, both in real life and the blogosphere.

I find the ignorance about Iranian exceptionalism in this regard quite astonishing. Many people do not distinguish between Iranians and Arabs, yet these are two distinct peoples with distinct cultures and ethical codes.

The fact that Ahmadinejad is much more popular among Arabs than he is in his own country is significant.

Noga, I meant to quote the entirety of Sophia's #1, "Interesting piece. Not sure what it all signifies - especially in regard to J Street." Someone who reads the Lenny Ben-David piece about where J Street draws support from and professes not to know what it signifies is either very credulous or disingenuous.

Noga or CC,

It's lovely to be mentioned here. A great honour.

I'd just like to note, that before you starting insulting me randomly, that your comments are always welcome on my blog unless they are personally insulting.

I love debates and I welcome them.
Debates is how you learn.

Hope to see you at my blog sometime soon, your presence is sorely missed. You might also learn a few things :)

Peace, salam, shalom.

"You might also learn a few things :)"

Ahlan, Buj. Make no mistake: I have learned a very great deal since I began to pay attention to Arab bloggers, one thing being the understanding that you are one of the "good guys". It's a depressing thought. No doubt you consider this an insult rather than an opportunity for you to learn something.

BTW, I have recorded on my blog the comments I left on your blog which were deleted. So anyone who is interested can find out for himself how "personally insulting" they were.

Sophia,

Therefore protesting the security barrier's placement and even its very existence is not treason.
It does suggest a different philosophy toward the Palestinian people, perhaps one that sees their rights as more significant than the security concerns.

I wish you were around to pick up the body parts of those who weren't as "significant" as the rights of those wanting to destroy.
So one must consider the rights of the killers to free movement over the safety of one's own?
This is not the Oxford Debating Society, this is reality one is facing.

all the way to outright antizionists who also appear among the ultra-religious.
So what? This is the point of a democracy is it not? Is it "treason" all of a sudden to dissent? I should hope not!!! (especially among Jews!)

It is not just dissenting it is giving aid and encouraging the destruction of the security barrier. Doesn't the NYT give full coverage?

Dissent in a debate or vote is one thing, aiding and abetting the other side to accomplish by violence (physical and/or vocal) is something else entirely different.

Those antizionist ultra-religious, thanks to there obstructionist behaviour at the end of the 19th century onwards have a lot of blood on their hands.
But then just to try and put into perspective their mindset, which is no better than a sharia compliant Muslim, consider their behaviour when a mother from their sect was charged with starving her son. They went wild trashing street lights, traffic lights and burning dumpsters in Jerusalem because they did not agree with the fact that the secular law for the protection of children was applied.
If it had been left up to them no doubt it would have been covered up for the sake of their honour.

What nice dissenters you choose to be fair and balanced.

You can read my comments on Buj's blog here, where he warns me about "insults" and then censors my comments:

http://bujassem.blogspot.com/2009/09/cartoon-of-day.html

Notice the comments by another poster, example here:

http://bujassem.blogspot.com/2009/10/jeff-gates-will-israel-fall-in-five.html?showComment=1254563995116#c7883179673889862709

which remains intact. No censorship there.

_____________

Buj's blog is only a minor one. It was his bad luck that I stumbled across it and began to feature its themes in my blog, by way of collecting and recording voices from the Arab street. He is, as I said, one of the relatively "good guys". You can meet other bloggers through his blog which are much more vicious about Jews, Israel, and extremely proud of it.

I read them and I want to weep. There is no way this hatred, in their guts, so self-righteous and hermetically sealed from reason and facts, can be neutralized. There is no will to peace, to truth, to tolerance of the other. None. Only contempt.

The Soviets/Communists may have better intentions than the Nazis, but they killed more people, in pursuit of their folly.

That in a nutshell summarizes the Western Left.

They are dangerous, no matter their good intentions....or maybe because of their good intentions...

or as C.S. Lewis eloquently said...

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. – C. S. Lewis

EV,

Don't forget that The Road To Hell is Paved with Good Intentions.

And we can also see that one Man's Hell is Another Man's Good Intentions.

Jimmeh Carter's Good Intentions in Iran in the late 70's are still paying big dividends, for US, Regional and World Security. The gift that keeps on giving.

Noga,

Trust me, I've tried to learn as much as I can from you, but the only thing I learned from you is that we'll agree to disagree on the issue of Palestine and Israel.

It seems like you've taken the worst aspects of lawyers and spin doctors and mixed up with genuine hate for everything Arab or Muslim.

I might have to keep my arguments simple for you to misconstrue them, but you have the talent to spin even a 3 word sentence into an anti-semetic rant.

As much as I'd love to continue this tennis match, I do not have much time to waste on people who are rude to me. Funny that I have friends from all faiths, including Judaisim (which is a religion I respect deeply), but it seems outside your grasp that two people can disagree with each others on ideas without being rude and insulting.

So I'll say this again, you're very welcome at my blog as long as you remain polite and civil, after all, isn't that what Judaism (and all other religions) is all about?

***I might have to keep my arguments simple for you not to misconstrue them, but you have the talent to spin even a 3 word sentence into an anti-semetic rant.***

BuJ, can you post HERE the comment you deleted from your blog because you considered the comment rude?

Let the readers of Solomonia see what you consider rude. We can contrast the "rude comment" to the other comments on BuJ that are acceptable to your standards.

A footnote:

"...but the only thing I learned from you is that we'll agree to disagree on the issue of Palestine and Israel."

As you can see, for Buj to disagree about Israel and Palestine is directly translated into demonization and Holocaust denial:

http://bujassem.blogspot.com/2010/01/mundo-dos-sonhos-world-of-dreams.html

http://contentious-centrist.blogspot.com/2010/01/turning-into-lane-in-arab-street.html