Things look pretty depressing. Not so much with regards to Obama and his administration (who never concealed their open hostility to Israel), but with respect to Bibi and his government. I must admit that my comments in an earlier thread regarding his "growing a spine", alas, remain wishful thinking.

Why should anyone pay any attention to Israeli positions (let alone respect them) when the Prime Minister humiliates himself so thoroughly by readily and obsequiously taking abuse from Obama and his lackeys? Ironically, Bibi seems to be the only current world leader who does not understand that Obama and his team are nothing but a bunch of impotent and incompetent hackers.

It is really frightening to think that Bibi and his government may still count on some help from Obama when things start to get hot with Iran.

Well, as you guys probably know I have a very different take on domestic politics - but let's leave that aside and talk about Israel.

In fact, I too am concerned about the severity of Hillary's rebuke to Bibi.

I did write here in an earlier comment that I was appalled by the fact that the housing permits in Rashon Schlomo were announced during VP Biden's visit. That was extremely stupid and it embarrassed the US and also Bibi's government. JP has a piece here about the repercussions, none of which are good:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=170817

I also believe that a two-state solution is probably the only way to begin moving forward on the Arab/Israeli front. I don't see, especially now that the religious issues have been laid bare, that this will be anything but a beginning but it's a necessary beginning imo.

I just don't see a viable alternative and neither do most people - perhaps there is some vague belief out there that the Palestinians will simply disappear but I do not hold to that notion.

It is also possible that the creation of a Palestinian state will result in further warfare. But, it could also be the beginning of a new era. And not doing anything, not moving forward, is sure to result in war and also the further demonization and isolation of Israel.

This is compounded by another set of facts: the Palestinian narrative is found to be globally compelling whereas Jewish existence has never been found to be particularly important to anybody as far as I can tell.

Alas. So if it really came down to it I think Israel's existence is precarious, and if Israel falls I don't want to think about what will happen to the Diaspora.

And, as a practical matter - there is no other alternative on the table for the Palestinians and as long as they remain stateless the Middle East will be afflicted by this issue - it isn't just Israel that's destabilized by it. It's a core issue not only to the Arab world but to the Muslim world and increasingly in the West particularly Europe.

Note I am not commenting here on the morals of the situation - merely on what I think are the facts.

Here's Jeffrey Goldberg from the Atlantic, who thinks Hillary did the right thing by attacking the settlement issue vigorously:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/03/a-smart-and-necessary-move-by-hillary-clinton/37443/

Now obviously I agree and disagree. There are settlements and there are settlements. I think that demanding a total settlement freeze without considering this fact was clumsy at best and it's driven both Israelis and Palestinians into harder positions, rather than enticing each group to move closer together.

Finally though, I think that a division of Jerusalem, especially one dictated and imposed on a democratic ally by Europe and America, would not buy peace in the long run and it would also be a slap in the face of Jews.

This is especially bizarre coming from the Left which supposedly respects minorities and if the Jews aren't a minority then who is?

Also, what then becomes of "multiculturalism", if a city can be cut into pieces? How does that argue for wholeness and unity?

But then - this isn't really a leftist foreign policy that we're seeing here, except in the sense that, rather than the Jews being seen as the minority the Palestinians have been splintered off from the rest of the Arab/Muslim/Christian world and have been presented as the "victim." That part then is classic leftist support of the perceived underdog.

Overall though this foreign policy is more like old school "offensive realism," in which peoples' feelings don't count, in fact people per se don't count either though frequently grievances of various sorts are employed as window dressing, as in Afghanistan - the path to war was carefully prepared by imagery of the oppressive Taliban though the long range goals of the war are far more complex than liberating people from the veil.

What counts then are not "rights" but "interests" and also the sheer numbers of non-Jews vs Jews (in this case) and the value of oil and territory vs the value of an ancient people.

Also not so important apparently: liberal, democratic values vs the imposition, by fiat, of conditions that might actually work against the democracy and values we supposedly espouse, should "interest" dictate.

Historically Jerusalem is and always has been a core element of Jewish - you should forgive the expression - narrative - and this just isn't being considered as important and I don't understand why not.

Hillary and Joe Biden both spoke reassuring of Israel's security and I am glad of that - but Hillary at least doesn't seem to realize what Jerusalem really means.

What is security without your symbolic heart?

I don't understand why the Muslim claims on Jerusalem, or for that matter Christian claims supercede the vast significance of the city to the Jewish people, who after all predate both Christianity and Islam by millenia.

In modern times, the situation during the period when Jordan controlled "East Jerusalem" which of course contains the old Jewish Quarter and the Temple Mount was bad - Jews were "cleansed" from the West Bank and "East Jerusalem" and couldn't worship at the Western Wall, Rachel's Tomb and other holy sites.

This was real ethnic cleansing and dividing the city would be akin to dividing Berlin, a situation which, wierdly, the world thought was terrible - and which also was imposed to control and hyperaggressive world power which had tried, literally, to conquer the world. That doesn't relate to Israel at all, though you wouldn't know it from the overheated rhetoric and conspiracy theories.

Regardless, I do think that it would be possible and desireable perhaps to form a protocol under which Jerusalem could be a shared capitol but this could only work in an era of real peace.

Meanwhile as Sol points out, nobody is worried about the public elevation of murderers by the Palestinians.

So, how does this help create such an era of peace?

Well, I don't think it would make a lot of sense to walk in circles and replay the old discussions here. Frankly, I am too concerned about Israel to argue again about the peace-loving "Palestinian people" (invented, as we saw in an earlier thread, by Yuri Andropov.)

I think the right strategy for Israel would be to realize that Obama is a complete failure and just ignore him (perhaps paying occasional lip service to clowns like Biden and deep thinkers like Hillary). Until Israelis start showing that they really mean it (that Jerusalem is the Jewish capital, for instance), no one else will take them seriously. And the sooner they start, the better for everybody.

Incidentally, the Jewish neighborhood in Jerusalem is called "Ramat Shlomo" (not "Rashon").

I think its starting to become clear that Muslims may have to be ethnically cleansed from the West and back into Muslim lands....including Israel.

A policy of containment then pursued, including helping Nigerian Christians and the Indians and so forth keep these IslamoNazis at bay...until they choke on their own hatred.

Yes - I'm so sorry I was typing fast and got the name mixed up -

Apologies!

But - I do not agree that Muslims should be "ethnically cleansed."

I do think though that everybody needs to work hard on education so people can lose the fear and hatred of each other.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be is ignoring that we in Israel are now in the midst of the third Intifada led and incited by the PA and our own Radical left, NIF funded NGOs.

As the talks of Peace increase, so do the terror attacks and we face on a daily basis.

Hello everyone
I think Obama is Muslim and his adviser Rahm Emanuel is a leftist radical, which explains the behavior of government, and we do not need more reasons, that explains it all, and a link to the article written by a friend.

http://www.screencast.com/users/ggr1868/folders/Jing/media/179d0081-b05e-4906-9616-49305b32ace3

a link to the site about the Islamic rising

http://www.21stcenturypress.com/islamrising.htm

That should be "including ethnically cleansed from Israel."

Israel faces the same demographic bomb as much of Europe.

Sophia would have been cheering Chamberlain's return, waving his Peace in Our Time paper around, just back from selling the Czechs up the river.

Dialogue, my foot!

Let me be clear, religiously cleanse, not ethnically cleanse.

EV, your comment about Chamberlain is unbelievably offensive even for you.

Basta! You are a bigot, you are actually talking about "religious cleansing", why does this sound exactly like a Nazi?

And so anybody who disagrees with you is Chamberlain?

Enough, I'm not going to waste any more time on this. You however should go look in the mirror once in awhile, that is if you can see through your white sheet.

As far as the third intifada, this is precisely what is feared. Also, Nappy is right about the teachings apparently, I think the US administration has mentioned "incitement" but not nearly strongly enough or often enough imo.

In fact there's near total denial in some quarters about PA books. Some were found to be repeating the Protocol as if they are fact; this was back during the Bush Administration and Natan Sharansky wrote the president complaining about it.

I mentioned this on DU once and got some song and dance about how the books had actually been borrowed from Egypt or were old surplus books from Egypt; therefore the PA couldn't be blamed for them.

Unbelievable.

PS this being the case how are kids supposed to grow up free from hate and fear?

With respect Moshe, Obama is a Christian and Rahm Emanuel is always in hot water with the left wing for being too centrist and pragmatic.

With respect Sophia ,

Only a little reminder :

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/postamerican.asp

Sophia,

Can you give one us single piece of evidence that creating a palestinian state will bring peace?

"Can you give one us single piece of evidence that creating a palestinian state will bring peace?"

How can she give evidence based on something that's never happened? However, I believe a Palestinian state would definitely lead to peace for Israel. Of course, the caveat to that is, the two nations should be as far away from each other as possible. They definitely should not share a border.

An even better solution would be to let the Gazans be absorbed by the Egyptians, and the West Bank inhabitants be taken in and settled in Jordan. Israel should keep all the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and for that matter Gaza, and the rest of the world should stay out of it. To those of you who might respond that this is an impractical or even impossible goal, ask yourselves if you really believed (those of you who are old enough to remember)if you thought the fall of the Soviet Union was a possibility before it actually happened.

You don't need the EU or the UN brand of "help". And it looks increasingly as though the US belongs in the same category.

I understand the embarrassment of the timing of the announcement during Biden's visit. The problem is, the US has been using the wrong approach to this problem since at least the Clinton years, if not well before.

"Alas. So if it really came down to it I think Israel's existence is precarious, and if Israel falls I don't want to think about what will happen to the Diaspora."

You might get an inkling from observing what is happening in Norway, where Israel is Satan and Muslims who feel confident in their numbers dictate the agenda:

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2010/03/norway-muslims-attack-jews-in-school.html

http://www.israelwhat.com/2010/03/13/state-television-nrk-broadcasts-on-anti-semitism-in-norway/

Moshe, people read books in order to learn, not necessarily because they reflect their personal taste.

As far as whether a Palestinian state would create peace, if you read my OP you will see that I myself worry that it won't.

However, the alternative is definitely war.

Shouldn't we do everything can to work for peace? I ask this not just philosophically but also considering the extreme cost of war - in lives, in lives ruined, and of course economically. This is harming Israel as well as the Arabs, and it's also providing excuse #1 for the surrounding region not to move forward.

The status quo is also providing Iran and other extremists including antisemites in the West with a perfect opportunity to attack Jews.

Considering all the angles isn't it better to strive for a peaceful resolution including the empowerment of the Palestinians within mutually agreed upon borders? I realize this is a maddening process and it is risky. But think about the alternative.

Thanks, Noga, for the links. Personally, I am extremely worried.

Now - having stated all the concerns and worries and objections - the problem as Nappy puts it in a nutshell remains, ie what will become of the Palestinian people if a state is not created for them?

That's a serious issue. It involves human rights which is a core Jewish and modern Western principle.

I ask that you consider philosophically what some of you have suggested concerning this, including the idea that they should be removed from what after all is their home too.

I find that totally unacceptable.

Thoughts?

Shouldn't we do everything can to work for peace? --- Sophia

Chamberlain certainly did.

Wilt the Stilt.

The problem is somewhere else

"Defense sources in Washington reported Saturday the view that the Obama administration, has seized on the Jerusalem housing spat as a device for restraining Israel from attacking Iran's nuclear sites, a step which the White House strenuously opposes"
http://www.debka.com/article/8648/

Our 'american friends' applied the same pressure and made the same noises in 2000 when the PLO started the al Aqsa intifada. For years while Jewish children were being shredding in bombings, the US scolded Israel to exercise 'restraint' and threatened every which way they could to get the Jews to bow down and put their necks on the chopping block. It didn't happen then it won't happen now.

When will Obama/Biden/Hillary pressure hamass, fatah, to end their racist, islamofascist TV shows, mosque sermons?

When a Muslim youth riots or torches a building in Europe, its a sign of alienation and the host society is at fault, when a youth white Euro riots or burns down a building, its a sign of fascism.

Same with the Israeli Jews now.

Im surprised you havent figured it out yet Eddie.

#19 Sophia

the problem as Nappy puts it in a nutshell remains, ie what will become of the Palestinian people if a state is not created for them?

First, there is no such thing as a or the (choose your article) "Palestinian people." That we even talk about Palestinian Arabs as if they were a people represents a tremendous propaganda victory for those who want to destroy Israel. It's a Big Lie.

Second, Nappy is in no rush to see the creation of a Palestinian state, and in fact, doesn't believe it's the best way forward. The fate of these people is the only thing that keeps Nappy from advocating for Greater Israel; it's simply not acceptable to expel them, and they've made it perfectly clear that Israel can't live with them. Hence, the fence.

Again, it's only the US, the EU and leftists, in Israel, the US and Europe who attach any sense of urgency to the the need for creating a Palestinian state. Neither Jordan nor Egypt is in any hurry to see one created. The status quo is actually pretty stable and less of a threat to peace in the region than a Palestinian state would be, assuming for a moment that Hamas and Fatah could somehow reconcile and make it possible for there to be a Palestinian state.

Given the disunity and both Palestinian governments' continuing to teach hatred and violence and their constantly denying Jewish connections to the land of Israel, it totally boggles Nappy's mind how the US and Europe can be so wrongheaded as to blame Israel, and not Arab intransigence, for the lack of progress.

But Nappy certainly does not wring hands or cry plaintively over the manifest failure of all attempts at a two-state solution, starting with the Arab rejection of the UN Partition Plan in 1947.

Dry Bones says this is a moment of truth for Bibi. Let's hope with Yaakov Kirschen that Bibi has the same kind of backbone as Menachem Begin and will stand up to our feckless, empty-suit teleprompter president.

Well, unfortunately The Powers That Be do not see things this way and have upped the ante considerably - read through this:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1156467.html

Also, whether there were a "Palestinian people" in 1948 or not no longer matters.

The "narrative" says there is and apparently the clearly ancient Jewish history, rights and aspirations don't count vis a vis "the narrative" and this even includes Jerusalem where one would think the terms "Old City" and "Jewish Quarter" might have some meaning but apparently not.

Also, I think it's too late to undo the damage of all these decades of propaganda. People may have felt part of Jordan or Egypt or Syria or part of an "Arab nation" but now are delineated and self-identifying as "Palestinian" - in some cases this is true even within Israel, so our opinion doesn't count.

Also I don't think the status quo is considered to be acceptable, as Israel is regarded as The Worst Human Rights Violator In The History Of The Planet Ever, and I fear a catastrophe. Alas, a rupture with the US would deeply threaten Israel's security.

I think, alas, this is one of those moments when the raw size and power of the US is being exposed and unfortunately it's being directed at an ally which not only shares our values but which has a strong case at least vis a vis Jerusalem.

You know what? I think everything is out of whack lately. Things feel out of balance and strange.

Well to quote "A Serious Man," and of course a serious Airplane, "When the truth is found to be lies...then what?"

But the other thing that should be painfully obvious to anybody who thinks Jews are powerful - we're not.

I gotta laugh when people say Israel runs the US. Israel apparently can't even define the boundaries of its own capitol city and is now being told whether or not it can issue building permits therein.

Of course, we can't get bubkus done over here either.

Our economy sucks, our infrastructure is falling apart, we are sending all our money abroad to buy stuff instead of making stuff and we are in the hole for approximately the next 3,000 years.

So we are going to tell our ally what to do about building permits instead of dealing with s*** here and/or confronting really serious problems, like environmental damage, major wars, real honest to goodness genocides, gross human rights violations, the threat of a nuclear arms race, not to mention hunger and poverty and disease.

Swell.

Nappy,

Did you read this opinion?

A blessing in disguise

Supporters of Israel should rejoice that Biden and Clinton have emerged from Obama's closet hatred of Israel. Their wild attack, as deadly as it seemed initially, however, did little or no damage. It clears the way for a robust Israeli response, one that will set the course of Israeli policy and the guidelines of future discussions.
PM Netanyahu now has the opportunity to defend Israel's position, not only on Jerusalem, but other issues of Israeli sovereignty that have been disputed. This includes the right to decide on what Jewish heritage sites include and the right to preserve those historical and archeological sites,

A case of Never Letting a Crisis go to Waste?

Sophia,

As far as whether a Palestinian state would create peace, if you read my OP you will see that I myself worry that it won't.
However, the alternative is definitely war.
Shouldn't we do everything can to work for peace?

How can one work for peace with a side that insists on a zero sum game?

As for war well take that as an analogy for making an omelette. One has to break the shell.

EV,

Read this and see that the US itself is being slowly compromised:
The Jihadi Feels Persecuted—His Aggression is Self-Defense

Their very existence got on his nerves. Or was it the fact that Campbell and Kaufman were documenting what Muslims were doing on American public property that bothered him? Surely, that’s provocation enough. Alhalabi kept finger pointing. He had people block Campbell’s camera. He kept advancing and “swatting at” Campbell’s camera. He had an associate take his camera and shove it up close into Campbell’s face. He “punched” at Campbell’s camera and face. According to Campbell, Alhalabi “physically pushed and shoved me.” He had previously done the same thing to Kaufman. The police finally asked Campbell and Kaufman—not Alhalabi– to leave. Not because they’d “done anything wrong” but because, said the officer, “your presence is offensive to this group. We must tell you to leave to keep the peace.” And, the local media (WTXL-TV) which promised to cover what had happened, backed down.

Just like the Jews are offensive to the Muslims and have to be shut up to keep the police/peace happy, so to, now America's freedom of the press and speech is offensive.

Indeed cynic.

Here it is clearly visible again Nappy.

White Euros are the new Jews. And its the Left that is driving the villification that breeds hatred for those groups.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/20981