Sophia, in every society there are good people. I dismiss no-one personally until I have met them no matter what culture or society they come from. But the culture itself can be malignant. Such is the case with most of the ME. It is there that people like Hilal are persecuted for speaking out. I notice you didn't mention the death threats she has received.

You should also be aware that she is a Bedouin and could well be engaged in a power challenge using the potency of Western memes against her family's adversaries. We'll see how long she lives.

I would hope you could engage this important topic without resorting to accusing me of calling "all" Arabs, Nazis. I'd think such cheap rhetoric is below your level. As I said, I called no-one Nazi. I used 1939 and our response to the Nazi movement as an analogy to the Western response to Islamism today.

But since you seem so interested in the comparison - I do maintain that the Arab hatred of Jews today is quite similar to the Nazi's in the 30's and 40's. Do you find such similarities distasteful for some reason? Because there is a Bedouin woman in Dubai who writes poetry critical of Muslim clerics - do you now think such similarities are impolite? Or, do you think Arab antisemitism is of a nobler quality?

I also notice that her poetry says nothing about how she hopes to have Jews as friends and neighbors some day and that they should come and live in Dubai so they can share recipes. When Arabs and start saying those kinds of things I'll start seeing Arab culture in a different light.

Ray, when you refer to me as "Chamberlain" because I think we can communicate and make peace with the Arabs you (and others who post here, it isn't just you) are automatically making the link between the Arabs and the Nazis.

I agree that there is terrible, 1930's style antisemitism out there. Much of it in fact came directly from the Nazis so this shouldn't come as a big surprise.

However there are people who resist this, who read, who don't assume that we're all bad or that Israel is the devil and who are reaching out for moderation and for knowledge.

People who attack me for Liberal Delusions or whatever should reflect for a moment on the probability that I have echoes in the Arab world. I am sure they are similarly being told that Israelis and Jews are all terrible and that these would-be peacemakers have Liberal Delusions too.

Probably people are calling them "collaborators" or something.

Do you see what I mean?

Now - we know that most Israelis, most Americans and most Jews are hardly the monsters we're portrayed as. Can we give a similar benefit of the doubt to others?

Meanwhile, I don't know how deeply the impact of bigotry, propaganda and lies as well as built in attitudes toward Jews has affected the people of the Middle East as a whole, if it's anything approaching the disease that overcame the Germans during WWII.

I hope not, but I think you are probably right that anti-Jewish attitudes are widespread and definitely, the demonization of Israel is common and frightening. In Iran for example though, I think it's more an obsession with the government than with the people. There are many highly educated Arabs too. Surely they are not all bigots?

Regardless, bigotry against Israel and Jews are also becoming common in the West - it's never been otherwise in Britain - and it's not really just on the Left.

Some of the ugliest forms are on the Right, the ones that really scare me are those that argue support for Israel is disloyal to the US, that Israel is a danger to the US - the Walt/Mearscheimer paradigm combined with classic antisemitic constructs such as "dual loyalty" and "too much power."

How long will it be before this construct begins affecting American policy? I would argue it already has. The Great Apartment Flap is Exhibit A. Exhibit B was the Petraeus stuff, following closely upon The Great Apartment Flap. That's a one-two whammy and it's coming from here, not from the Middle East.

This was an over the top, disproportionate response to the announcement of some apartments in an area that had explicitly NOT been included in the "settlement freeze," and it was condemned in the same tones we'd usually reserve for mass murder - except that the Palestinians celebrate a mass murderer and we said bubkus.

Had this been decried as loudly and harshly as the apartments I would feel a little better, but it wasn't and I don't.

Frankly I do not know what to do. I try to keep showing the human face of others and reaching out to them when I can. But I definitely have that outnumbered feeling right now. People are talking about Israel in terms of a liability to the US.

That puts Jews everywhere in an extremely fragile position.

I think we are in serious danger and I think, as Hillary pointed out in her AIPAC speech, that mass media and the 'net have spread anti-Israel messages throughout the Middle East to the point that it's become an obsession there.

I was afraid it would come to this when I started seeing the first ripples of what I considered shocking antisemitism on US political boards. I hadn't realized that this was common currency in the European MSM.

Well, now you have Andrew Sullivan on his very popular blog channeling real c***, to millions of people and also, General Petraeus is being quoted in a way that makes it sound as though Israel is being blamed for America's woes in the Middle East:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/03/israel_and_palestine_0

I too have met, known and been friends with Muslims who I would describe as wonderful people. But my problem is that the religious among them must choose to reject whole portions of their religious canon in order to reject the violence that is inherent in it which, unfortunately can put a person in danger in many countries where Islam is dominant and even in some where it isn't. And even though parts of the Koran has been expunged from canon at times past, that is not likely to happen again, at least in our time. Would I like to be an optimist? Of course. I want peace. But...

Well, some clerics are standing up. This is a Sunni Muslim site:

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/

Here's another, standing firm against violence:

http://islamnon-violence.org/en/fatwa-against-violence/

It's a beginning. And, it's also an echo of the past, where in at least some regions Islam was indeed a tolerant and open philosophy.

Jews were preyed upon in Spain but found sanctuary in the Ottoman Empire. There are other examples, along the Silk Road for example, in Persia, in India.

I don't think our enemies, as Americans, as Christian or Muslims or Jews, as Hindus, as whoever we happen to be, is "the other" per se. Rather we're all stalked by intolerance, hatred and fear.

We need to stand together regardless of who we are to defeat these terrible enemies.

We should certainly support subversive groups within the Muslim World(like the Soviets did in the West and US), but lets keep the Muslims in the Muslim world for now, to contain the poison and violence. We should support an Islamic Left which undermines and subverts Islamic culture and attacks the foundations of Muslim and tribal subcultures.

PS - I find the use of the phrase "with all due respect" to be amusingly disrespectful.

Sophia,

You do seem to go overboard when you attempt to find something to support your beliefs, but please don't jump in without considering that generally Muslims while bemoaning the injustices done to themselves and cherry picking the Qur'an for verses in support, do not consider infidels.
I agree with Ray, but one doesn't have to use the Nazis as an example that the Arabs followed to the letter. Since from the time of Muhammad the discrimination against Jews has been total even if not industrialized with trains and camps, although they were confined to quarters.
Just pay attention to the Muslim street and its actions, be it in Nigeria or Asia. They don't need extremists, just a good haranguing in the Mosque on Friday to go wild.

Exhibit B was the Petraeus stuff, following closely upon The Great Apartment Flap. That's a one-two whammy and it's coming from here, not from the Middle East.

But apparently Petraeus was complaining that his Arab pals were using their time old complaint of the US being too pally with Israel.
It's about time that a US General in his position doing the work he does should know that they come up with an excuse to suit at the drop of a hat.

Sophia,

Meanwhile, I don't know how deeply the impact of bigotry, propaganda and lies as well as built in attitudes toward Jews has affected the people of the Middle East as a whole

Just have a look at what the PA TV is broadcasting for children, let alone for adults. Turkish TV is putting out serials of Israelis cutting Palestinian throats in the streets and the Arab TV stations are rushing in droves to buy.
And the well know Elders ... etc., which are circulating daily.
They have been under this influence of Jew hatred for centuries only now multimedia has brought it all to them in colour and surround sound.

Jews were preyed upon in Spain but found sanctuary in the Ottoman Empire.

Under the rule of one particular person and then had to run when another took his place.
While they found sanctuary life was far from a bed of roses.

When discussing clerics please make the distinction between Sufi and Salafi cults. They are two different kettles of fish and the Salafi crowd are way in the majority. Of course you won't find any Shiite to your satisfaction.

Sophia,

Read Ray's comment #16 in your Guns, Butter, Democracy ... post for cultural differences at play.

Ah hah. EV has found a use for the Left.

Progress:)

Seriously - I think what Hillary said yesterday at AIPAC was interesting. She reported that she rarely, when travelling throughout the region, used to hear about the Arab/Israeli conflict but now it's on the front burner, it's on everybody's mind, the implication being too that Israel is being demonized 24/7, which it is.

I think that mass media is partially if not primarily responsible for this, and also the propaganda coming from Iran and the proPalestinian movement(s).

During this time though, between the early 1990's and now, what has happened? Well in the 1980's there were several extremely violent wars, in fact there were wars in every decade since WWII but in the 1980's they were just huge and extremely destructive.

And then in the early 1990's, Iraq, our client dictatorship, attacked Kuwait.

We assembled a large army in Saudi Arabia and attacked Iraq. That was apparently a trigger for al Qaeda which then began attacking us. We were also attacked by Hezbollah again.

Shortly after Clinton and Barak worked to try and persuade Arafat to commit to peace, the UN's Durban Conference became an antisemitic hate fest. We were attacked on 9/11 and Intifada II broke out. Mass media carried these images around the world, particularly throughout the Middle East and particularly images of Israelis attacking Palestinians or theoretically attacking Palestinians during the Intifada or just before it(see Augean Stables about that.)

We then attacked Iraq again and also Afghanistan.

I think, it doesn't take a genius to see that the past 3 decades have been incredibly violent and many people in the Middle East and Central Asia have been killed, maimed, bereaved and their homes and jobs and security have been destroyed.

Some one million people were killed in the Iran/Iraq war, I don't know how many in the invasion of Kuwait and Gulf War I, then there was Gulf War II and the Intifada and the terrorist attacks not only on us but throughout the region and beyond. Note these wars followed the dreadfully violent Lebanese Civil War which is a whole other story but it does bear on today's events and on the modern M.E. ethos.

Oh - I forgot to mention the Soviet war against Afghanistan which has had far ranging consequences including the fact that we are now at war there and Pakistan is essentially fighting a civil war.

I think, a lot of anti-Western and antisemitic propaganda emanates from real events in the ME and much of it must be a reaction to wars and the tragedy of war.

I don't know about you guys but I got scared just watching the night attack on Baghdad on TV.

Imagine if you were a person on the ground. When Israel was being hit by SCUD's and by Hezbollah rockets, I cringed. Well, imagine being under a US bombardment, then follow that up with the terrorism - you can't go to the mosque or the market without fear of being blown up by a suicide bomber.

Note, I'm not making a statement here about right or wrong regarding any of these wars.

I'm just saying, you don't have to dig into the Quran or the history of the Salafis or whatever to understand that real events, real warfare, violence, terrorism and oppressive governments have taken a huge toll on people and that this is probably - definitely - coloring their vision of the world.

Why this has taken a specifically antisemitic tinge is a complicated issue. Some of it is linkage between the US and Israel though, with the US taking the point in two wars against Iraq and also Afghanistan, we're blamed for overthrowing a liberal leader in Iran, we armed Saddam etc - we are "The Great Satan" and Israel is our ally.

Of course there are other "satans" and the Green Movement in Iran is now yelling "Death to Russia" and the mujeheddin originally went to war against the Soviets, but we seem to be Enemy #1 - and it doesn't help that the very wealthy Gulf Arabs are seen as our allies too, and also Mubarek, and this is a sore point with the poor and the oppressed.

You cannot underestimate the income gap between our Gulf allies and the people of Syria, the poor people in Jordan, the Palestinians, the Egyptians - even with great resources for example most Algerians are poor - so this is really an aggravation - I saw it one night when I was performing for a group of people from Kuwait. We had a pair of Palestinian drummers. When they saw we were performing for Kuwaitis they immediately refused to play. The oud player and I had to kick in our pay and do a lot of begging to get them to perform.

I realized that night how the wealth of Kuwait and other Gulf states vs the poverty of most Arabs is enormous and this is a factor that we Americans (and the wealthy Arabs) underestimate to our peril. This also plays into antisemitism.

I'd like to point out though that historically, times of violence and deprivation and insecurity have featured antisemitic attacks in the West too.

These build on the dual whammy for Jews of being essentially not powerful in fact but thought nevertheless to control events, which admittedly is a completely illogical conundrum! and when events are bad we are scapegoated and because in reality we are a tiny minority and not strong militarily it's easy to attack us. Even Israel has survived basically by miracles I think.

And, the past couple of weeks, with The Great Apartment flap, have certainly served to remind us of just how precarious Israel's existence really is.

Israel takes the blame for all the above-mentioned agony, Eretz Israel is now the stand-in for The International Jew who was stateless, essentially powerless yet seen as controlling wealth, wars, the policy of empires.

Does this make sense?

Part II of War and Peace:

Note I don't think these antisemitic attacks and scapegoating, the mass bloodlettings, happened nearly as much in the Muslim world as they did in the West, although there were exceptions for example there was a pogrom in Damascus, a blood libel - but that was about the murder of a Christian priest. Most of the really virulent antisemitism we see in the East today came at least in form from the West, it's Nazi and also medieval.

And I'm seeing stuff on the 'net lately blaming Israel for persecuting Christians - people realize perhaps that the West isn't all that sympathetic to Islam so now we stand accused of persecuting Arab Christians and on top of that harming American soldiers. The danger to American supporters of Israel is that we are now portrayed as disloyal and a danger to US interests! That is a serious escalation and we cannot underestimate just how bad this is.

Anyway - antisemitism in the Arab world is real but had been less about us killing G*d and more a matter of Jews being dhimmi, with its dual meaning of "protected minority and people of the book" which is the good part of dhimmitude - the bad part being that dhimmi are essentially second class citizens and well under control. Yes, there is the history of Jewish tribes in Arabia etc but overall we were a conquered people and therefore not seen as a threat.

This equation changed in the 20th century.

The Protocols was cooked up by anti-Bolshevik Czarist intelligence, who scapegoated the Jews for the Russian Revolution. This meme was picked up by imperialists and capitalists and anti-Soviets in the West and widely translated and disseminated all over the world.

It was published in Damascus in 1920 or shortly thereafter and anti-Western Muslim groups there latched onto it in the wake of Britain's assault on the Ottoman Empire, which regardless of the liberation of the Arabs was regardless an attack on a Muslim empire by a Western empire.

That is significant. The British were really hated. That in itself explains some of the popularity of Hitler in the East.

And given the power ascribed to Jews in the Protocols I think we were probably blamed for that too, for the overthrow of the Ottomans, a Muslim empire after all, in the east - especially since this was accompanied by the Balfour Declaration. It is notable I think that al Husseini had served with the Turkish army.

So all this has a long history but it wasn't a matter of mass hysteria until relatively recently, when Arab and Iranian TV networks and the internet started 24/7 broadcasts not only of real wars but of anti-Western and antisemitic propaganda, although I think the wars against Israel and Middle Eastern Jews including the Yishuv definitely have always been motivated at least partly by antisemitism.

What do you think?

Ah hah. EV has found a use for the Left. -- Sophia

Yes to do what they do best destroy cultures and civilizations. Instead of destroying Israel, European, Jews, and Christian societies, they could be put to much better use doing so to Islamic societies.

I think we should deport the lot of them to Muslim lands with all the Muslims as well, and let them do their thing. Perhaps they will come to understand their anti Western folly when they are dealing with day to day living of the Islamic government, justice system, legal framework, and institutions.

Oh right. Like I am destroying our culture.

Sheese EV. I supposed you'd have said the same thing about people like Ben Franklin with his investigations into science as opposed to just swallowing religion whole; and George Washington, the other founding fathers, you know, because they rebelled against the Brits.

As far as deporting Muslims. How dare you. You say this to a Jewish person?

Science progressed very nicely in Christians societies.

It just goes to show how ill informed and twisted your beliefs are.

Its disingenuous of you to claim classical liberals as Leftwingers. You know, Im referring to Progressives, Marxists and Quasi Marxists, and their fellow traveling Social Democrats.

As a Jewish person, you should be thrilled to be rid of the Muslims. Just ask the Jews of Malmo.

Yes to do what they do best destroy cultures and civilizations. Instead of destroying Israel, European, Jews, and Christian societies, they could be put to much better use doing so to Islamic societies.

I especially ask those of you who seem to equate all the people of the East, including our Arab cousins, with Nazis (shame on you).

Excuse me but I don't think any of us equate all the people of the East with Nazis.

However, the bigotry against Jews as well as the state of Israel is appalling.

Look at some of the cartoons, TV programs and state or political party media from the Middle East. It has direct Nazi antecedents.

What do you suggest?

PS - did you read the op???? It speaks directly to the point - that stereotyping Middle Eastern people is wrong.