As the countdown starts to next week's vote whether or not to override the veto of last month's BDS resolution at Berkeley, I'm updating some writing from way back when during divestment campaigns at Somerville and the Presbyterian Church, highlighting how much the same issues keep coming up again and again whenever one of these divestment projects finds a new victim.
Today's installment includes some thoughts on Ruthlessness.
Sophia, if the road to hell is paved with good intentions, where do you think your attempts to dialog with islamofasicsts and debased socialists will take you to?
Eddie. You are as bad as EVil in your own way. You assume all Muslims, Arabs and leftists are alike.
Now. I don't find fascists of any stripe amusing, I don't care where they're from, what religion they espouse or what color they are.
I find nothing amusing about YOUR threats either. What you say about Mecca and Medina is flat out irresponsible, same with your ugly comments about Palestinians.
Now. What was that about "dialogue?"
Oh yeah. "Dialogue" means that we talk to people. This is how people communicate. Even people who've been brainwashed or misinformed or taught to hate can learn through communication.
As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." --- Sophia
And Leftists are paving the way to hell as fast as humanly possible. Its almost as if they relish the idea of Hell, and cant wait to get there.
Leftism leads directly to hell, and the more power leftists have, political, economic, cultural, within institutions and organizations, the faster you get there.
I think that is a valuable lesson Sophia. Thanks for sharing it on this Saturday afternoon.
"Eddie. You are as bad as EVil in your own way. You assume all Muslims, Arabs and leftists are alike."
Sophia, please show us the supposed MAJORITY of Muslims who are "progressive", who are "live and let live", who respect other religions.
Since it's a "majority" of Muslims, it should be easy for you.
"leftists" are staunch athiests when it comes to Christianity or Judaism, but surprisingly accommodating to Muslims/Islamists/Islamofascists.
For example when was the last time you saw "progressives" demonstrate against "muslim only foot washing" stations at airports?
Remember Sophia, fascists are socialists too.
Sophia, I have NO nuclear weapons, but I believe there are governments who would use nuclear weapon, in retaliation, in a Mecca. Assured. Destruction. scenario, if attacked with WMDs.
Reminding islamofascists that Islam can suffer a terrible punishment is a necessary evil.
Sophia, some of your comments are good, but sadly too many of your comments are jaw droppingly naive.
I hope Berekeley rips the mask off once and for all and openly kicks all Jews out. At least we wouldn't have to wonder any more and only morons like Juan Cole would cheer.
Eddie. You are as bad as EVil in your own way. You assume all Muslims, Arabs and leftists are alike.
Sophia it's not that all Muslims are "like Leftists and their co-anti-zionists, the Islamist bretheren", but that they are not free to act according to their wishes.
Arab Israeli singer and television personality Mira Awad has withdrawn from the Zionist Federation's Israel Independence Concert in London following death threats against her and her family, it was reported on Friday.
Awad, along with fellow singer Achinoam Nini, represented Israel at the 2009 Eurovision concert have performed at venues around the world to packed audiences. Awad has worked to promote coexistence between Arabs and Jews in Israel through her work with Nini, but also through various other platforms.
......
...Awad grew up in Rameh, an Arab village near Karmiel, and lives today in Tel Aviv. Her family, which still lives in the Galilee, employs strict measures to ensure their security.
And so it is with all Muslim communities where the "thugs" control the behaviour of all through fear and violence if necessary.
Machiavelli had nothing on these people.
Oh yeah. "Dialogue" means that we talk to people. This is how people communicate. Even people who've been brainwashed or misinformed or taught to hate can learn through communication.
The Obama Kool Aid is beginning to flow.
Forgive the sarcasm but quite honestly the above is so far removed from reality.
To talk and teach these brainwashed and misinformed people of a millennium culture to discard everything and learn through communication means removing them from their culture completely and reassigning them to a different culture completely. Good luck with that.
I make a comment about the evils of stereotyping and what do we get but a whole string of stereotypes - stereotypes of Muslims, socialists, anti-war activists -
OK. Step back and ask yourselves "What is wrong with this picture?"
Now: as to the death threat against the Israeli singer, that is appalling as are the disruptions of the Israeli string quartet concerts.
So was the attempt to take down Harry's by the far right.
All of those are the result of bigotry and stereotyping are they not?
Sophia, do you think that WW2 could have been avoided or shortened with "dialogue"?
How successful was Neville Chamberlain with "dialogue"?
Would you have been willing to accommodate, understand the needs of nazis? Find some common ground, a "win-win" scenario between the US and nazi Germany or the US and imperial Japan?
Would nazis, islamofascists see "dialogue" as a means of accomplishing their genocidal goals?
Afterall nazis, islamofascists are "people" too, both are "resisting".
Sophia, how successful would "dialogue" have been in ending slavery in the US? Would you have been keen in understanding the rights of slave holders in the South?
I guess I have a Pollyanna streak. I'll cop to that, insofar as I try to always be hopeful.
However this doesn't make me blind either to history, to what's going on today and in fact my view of the future is pretty pessimistic.
Meanwhile, what I'm arguing for isn't ignorance and/or putting the head in the sand.
I do think though that it's unhelpful to assume that everybody in the Muslim world is a fascist, an extremist or otherwise somebody who wishes us harm. There are people in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia for example, who are learned, who are progressive, and who are moving their deeply conservative culture forward albeit incrementally.
Persia and Turkey, Egypt and Lebanon and other North African states are by nature more cosmopolitan and have long been centers of learning and trade and also, home to many Jews.
Would you assume the people there are all enemies? I should hope not! This is also true of Central Asian nations.
I would say that we're having to cope with a huge amount of propaganda and that's having an effect here at home too. Some of the worst Nazi propaganda spread to the East and it's started looping back into the West. You see this increasingly as more and more, antisemitism is becoming acceptable again.
I think the demonization of Israel is absolutely a form of antisemitism and I'm dismayed that American scholars, right and left as well as business and political and religious leaders are exploiting the situation.
I think ultimately everybody will lose from this. There is no upside to it, in the West, in the East - a resurgence of intolerance and hate isn't in anybody's interest, period. In the short term certain economic interests might flourish - for example unrest and instability might drive oil prices up.
But over the long run, the price paid by fomenting violence and hatred will be extreme. If nothing else, mankind is stained when hatred, stupidity and violence rule - meanwhile, day by day, we ignore the threat to our planet and do nothing to clean the water, the air, and secure the chain of life.
So I'm not arguing that we should ignore enemies and threats; rather that we should recognize that not everybody poses a threat and that many are actually friends or potential friends.
By the same token, when it comes to domestic politics - even though I am on the Left, I don't think Conservatives are all out to get me or ruin or country etc. There are plenty of people on the Right, though we may disagree, with whom one can converse.
However, the attitudes expressed toward the Left in this and many another thread are neither tolerant, knowledgeable or nuanced. EV actually seems to think the Left is destructive, period, without realizing that many cultural and economic practices against which the Left has historically struggled are in fact oppressive - and that principled Conservatives also see this. For example, Conservatives have no problem trying to establish democratic governments abroad - this is actually a revolutionary step. It is also regarded as destructive by those who think local cultures should be preserved even if they're oppressive cultures.
So it's wierd - in this case some people on the Left are progressive here at home and think American attempts to create democracy abroad is colonialism/imperialism, ie bad; on the other hand the Left argues for human rights, so there's a lot of overlap here as well as disagreement.
My point is simply this: try not to see everybody on "the other side" as monolithically wrong, bad, threatening or evil.
And, if it's at all possible, I do think we should find ways to work out or problems that don't involve violence.
This doesn't make me "Chamberlain." In fact I think the threat to the West, to Israel, to women, to human rights and democratic states, to freedom of expression and reigious freedom is severe.
But I am not sure that in this particular struggle dropping bombs on the problem will solve it because it's a philosophical, even a religious struggle more that a war between states struggling for dominance over resources and territory.
I think, rather, this is a war of ideas, but also evidence of a struggle between old and new.
Also, in this case, we have to clarify what our goals are.
Is it to defeat terror? Conservative cultures? Establish or retain dominance? Defend ourselves? Secure WMD's so rogue groups or states cannot wipe out entire states? We don't seem to have clear goals and that's complicating our problems.
By the same token, there is no one enemy - there are several, with disparate goals, some of which amount to simple resentment at being told what to do by outside powers, some of which is resistance to any kind of change, period, some of which really do constitute an attack against us as a political entity and/or have the potential to threaten access and distribution of key regions/resources.
So we have to have a nuanced approach to these matters.
Is it to defeat terror? Conservative cultures? Establish or retain dominance? Defend ourselves? Secure WMD's so rogue groups or states cannot wipe out entire states? We don't seem to have clear goals and that's complicating our problems. --- Sophia
I heard Obama has scratched all references to Islam and Muslims from National Security documents.
Im sure that helps people to think clearly about the issues.
The problem Sophia is that the West has been divided, into a bunch of New Leftist groups combined with the white European Left, and their goal is villify any European peoples who have clear goals...as criminal racism against "the Other."
This division has allowed Islam to creep in and pose a serious threat to the West. Aided and abetted by the Left.
What is required is a rejection of the Left and the empowerment of a resurgent culturally confident European people core, which can speak with one voice on what it is that they want, what their goals are...and then decisively act to implement them. Instead of doing things like striking Islam and Muslims from National Security documents and calling that progress. This subjugation of European peoples interests and culture to "the Other," IS the problem.
With regard to .. do you think that WW2 could have been avoided or shortened with "dialogue"?
I am reminded of an interview that the late John Lennon's wife Yoko Ono had on TV where she asked the "brilliant" question of why Mr. Churchill didn't sit down with Mr. Hitler and work things out, thereby displaying absolute ignorance of the events (FACTS) that took place prior to Mr Churchill becoming prime minister.
No doubt today if Obama had been in Chamberlain's place Poland would have been dumped as regards the treaty it had with Britain, and still the British would have been even more shocked months later by the course of events, shocked I say.
Mr. Hitler did not keep his word with the Russians even after signing a non-aggression pact
because Hitler suggested in Mein Kampf ("My Struggle"), some 16 years earlier, that he would invade the Soviet Union, stating that the German people needed Lebensraum, land and raw materials, and that these should be found in the east. Nazi racial ideology cast the Soviet Union as populated by "untermenschen" ethnic Slavs ruled by their "Jewish Bolshevik" masters.
Take them at their word and let THEM prove differently.
Persia and Turkey, Egypt and Lebanon and other North African states
Persia=Iran under control of an apocalyptic sect., which thinks nothing of killing its own to maintain control. When do you think those cosmopolitan types will sit down and compromise?
Iran which has in its services thug n°1 Syria, and now Turkey, and uses its Foreign Legion, Hezbollah under the watchful eye of Syria, to control Lebanon and lead the onslaught against Israel's northern flank while providing diplomatic cover for Syrian hegemony.
Egypt, Libya cosmopolitan?
Good piece.
I think we're heading off a cliff myself.
As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Sophia, if the road to hell is paved with good intentions, where do you think your attempts to dialog with islamofasicsts and debased socialists will take you to?
Eddie. You are as bad as EVil in your own way. You assume all Muslims, Arabs and leftists are alike.
Now. I don't find fascists of any stripe amusing, I don't care where they're from, what religion they espouse or what color they are.
I find nothing amusing about YOUR threats either. What you say about Mecca and Medina is flat out irresponsible, same with your ugly comments about Palestinians.
Now. What was that about "dialogue?"
Oh yeah. "Dialogue" means that we talk to people. This is how people communicate. Even people who've been brainwashed or misinformed or taught to hate can learn through communication.
Does this make sense? I sure as hell hope so.
As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." --- Sophia
And Leftists are paving the way to hell as fast as humanly possible. Its almost as if they relish the idea of Hell, and cant wait to get there.
Leftism leads directly to hell, and the more power leftists have, political, economic, cultural, within institutions and organizations, the faster you get there.
I think that is a valuable lesson Sophia. Thanks for sharing it on this Saturday afternoon.
Sophia said...
"Eddie. You are as bad as EVil in your own way. You assume all Muslims, Arabs and leftists are alike."
Sophia, please show us the supposed MAJORITY of Muslims who are "progressive", who are "live and let live", who respect other religions.
Since it's a "majority" of Muslims, it should be easy for you.
"leftists" are staunch athiests when it comes to Christianity or Judaism, but surprisingly accommodating to Muslims/Islamists/Islamofascists.
For example when was the last time you saw "progressives" demonstrate against "muslim only foot washing" stations at airports?
Remember Sophia, fascists are socialists too.
Sophia, I have NO nuclear weapons, but I believe there are governments who would use nuclear weapon, in retaliation, in a Mecca. Assured. Destruction. scenario, if attacked with WMDs.
Reminding islamofascists that Islam can suffer a terrible punishment is a necessary evil.
Sophia, some of your comments are good, but sadly too many of your comments are jaw droppingly naive.
I hope Berekeley rips the mask off once and for all and openly kicks all Jews out. At least we wouldn't have to wonder any more and only morons like Juan Cole would cheer.
EV,
As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." --- Sophia
And Leftists are paving the way to hell as fast as humanly possible. Its almost as if they relish the idea of Hell, and cant wait to get there.
Yeh! But it's with BAD intentions.
Sophia,
Eddie. You are as bad as EVil in your own way. You assume all Muslims, Arabs and leftists are alike.
Sophia it's not that all Muslims are "like Leftists and their co-anti-zionists, the Islamist bretheren", but that they are not free to act according to their wishes.
A case in point is Sol's link:
Israeli Arab Singer Receives Threats, Cancels London Show
And so it is with all Muslim communities where the "thugs" control the behaviour of all through fear and violence if necessary.
Machiavelli had nothing on these people.
Oh yeah. "Dialogue" means that we talk to people. This is how people communicate. Even people who've been brainwashed or misinformed or taught to hate can learn through communication.
The Obama Kool Aid is beginning to flow.
Forgive the sarcasm but quite honestly the above is so far removed from reality.
To talk and teach these brainwashed and misinformed people of a millennium culture to discard everything and learn through communication means removing them from their culture completely and reassigning them to a different culture completely. Good luck with that.
I wish people would stop associating Kool-Aid with human insanity.
Call it "Mecca-Cola!" the drink of depraved islamofascists.
The "left", "progressively mentally ill", [national] Socialists, Obamatons, "anti-war" HA! acitivists. have all drunk the "Mecca-Cola".
Wow. Congratulations everybody.
I make a comment about the evils of stereotyping and what do we get but a whole string of stereotypes - stereotypes of Muslims, socialists, anti-war activists -
OK. Step back and ask yourselves "What is wrong with this picture?"
Now: as to the death threat against the Israeli singer, that is appalling as are the disruptions of the Israeli string quartet concerts.
So was the attempt to take down Harry's by the far right.
All of those are the result of bigotry and stereotyping are they not?
Sophia, do you think that WW2 could have been avoided or shortened with "dialogue"?
How successful was Neville Chamberlain with "dialogue"?
Would you have been willing to accommodate, understand the needs of nazis? Find some common ground, a "win-win" scenario between the US and nazi Germany or the US and imperial Japan?
Would nazis, islamofascists see "dialogue" as a means of accomplishing their genocidal goals?
Afterall nazis, islamofascists are "people" too, both are "resisting".
Sophia, how successful would "dialogue" have been in ending slavery in the US? Would you have been keen in understanding the rights of slave holders in the South?
Sophia, is your middle name Pollyanna?
Yeh! But it's with BAD intentions. --- Cynic
Not every Leftist has bad intentions. Many actually believe in Unicorns and Rainbows.
I guess I have a Pollyanna streak. I'll cop to that, insofar as I try to always be hopeful.
However this doesn't make me blind either to history, to what's going on today and in fact my view of the future is pretty pessimistic.
Meanwhile, what I'm arguing for isn't ignorance and/or putting the head in the sand.
I do think though that it's unhelpful to assume that everybody in the Muslim world is a fascist, an extremist or otherwise somebody who wishes us harm. There are people in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia for example, who are learned, who are progressive, and who are moving their deeply conservative culture forward albeit incrementally.
Persia and Turkey, Egypt and Lebanon and other North African states are by nature more cosmopolitan and have long been centers of learning and trade and also, home to many Jews.
Would you assume the people there are all enemies? I should hope not! This is also true of Central Asian nations.
I would say that we're having to cope with a huge amount of propaganda and that's having an effect here at home too. Some of the worst Nazi propaganda spread to the East and it's started looping back into the West. You see this increasingly as more and more, antisemitism is becoming acceptable again.
I think the demonization of Israel is absolutely a form of antisemitism and I'm dismayed that American scholars, right and left as well as business and political and religious leaders are exploiting the situation.
I think ultimately everybody will lose from this. There is no upside to it, in the West, in the East - a resurgence of intolerance and hate isn't in anybody's interest, period. In the short term certain economic interests might flourish - for example unrest and instability might drive oil prices up.
But over the long run, the price paid by fomenting violence and hatred will be extreme. If nothing else, mankind is stained when hatred, stupidity and violence rule - meanwhile, day by day, we ignore the threat to our planet and do nothing to clean the water, the air, and secure the chain of life.
So I'm not arguing that we should ignore enemies and threats; rather that we should recognize that not everybody poses a threat and that many are actually friends or potential friends.
By the same token, when it comes to domestic politics - even though I am on the Left, I don't think Conservatives are all out to get me or ruin or country etc. There are plenty of people on the Right, though we may disagree, with whom one can converse.
However, the attitudes expressed toward the Left in this and many another thread are neither tolerant, knowledgeable or nuanced. EV actually seems to think the Left is destructive, period, without realizing that many cultural and economic practices against which the Left has historically struggled are in fact oppressive - and that principled Conservatives also see this. For example, Conservatives have no problem trying to establish democratic governments abroad - this is actually a revolutionary step. It is also regarded as destructive by those who think local cultures should be preserved even if they're oppressive cultures.
So it's wierd - in this case some people on the Left are progressive here at home and think American attempts to create democracy abroad is colonialism/imperialism, ie bad; on the other hand the Left argues for human rights, so there's a lot of overlap here as well as disagreement.
My point is simply this: try not to see everybody on "the other side" as monolithically wrong, bad, threatening or evil.
And, if it's at all possible, I do think we should find ways to work out or problems that don't involve violence.
This doesn't make me "Chamberlain." In fact I think the threat to the West, to Israel, to women, to human rights and democratic states, to freedom of expression and reigious freedom is severe.
But I am not sure that in this particular struggle dropping bombs on the problem will solve it because it's a philosophical, even a religious struggle more that a war between states struggling for dominance over resources and territory.
I think, rather, this is a war of ideas, but also evidence of a struggle between old and new.
Also, in this case, we have to clarify what our goals are.
Is it to defeat terror? Conservative cultures? Establish or retain dominance? Defend ourselves? Secure WMD's so rogue groups or states cannot wipe out entire states? We don't seem to have clear goals and that's complicating our problems.
By the same token, there is no one enemy - there are several, with disparate goals, some of which amount to simple resentment at being told what to do by outside powers, some of which is resistance to any kind of change, period, some of which really do constitute an attack against us as a political entity and/or have the potential to threaten access and distribution of key regions/resources.
So we have to have a nuanced approach to these matters.
Does this make sense?
Is it to defeat terror? Conservative cultures? Establish or retain dominance? Defend ourselves? Secure WMD's so rogue groups or states cannot wipe out entire states? We don't seem to have clear goals and that's complicating our problems. --- Sophia
I heard Obama has scratched all references to Islam and Muslims from National Security documents.
Im sure that helps people to think clearly about the issues.
The problem Sophia is that the West has been divided, into a bunch of New Leftist groups combined with the white European Left, and their goal is villify any European peoples who have clear goals...as criminal racism against "the Other."
This division has allowed Islam to creep in and pose a serious threat to the West. Aided and abetted by the Left.
What is required is a rejection of the Left and the empowerment of a resurgent culturally confident European people core, which can speak with one voice on what it is that they want, what their goals are...and then decisively act to implement them. Instead of doing things like striking Islam and Muslims from National Security documents and calling that progress. This subjugation of European peoples interests and culture to "the Other," IS the problem.
Eddie,
With regard to
.. do you think that WW2 could have been avoided or shortened with "dialogue"?
I am reminded of an interview that the late John Lennon's wife Yoko Ono had on TV where she asked the "brilliant" question of why Mr. Churchill didn't sit down with Mr. Hitler and work things out, thereby displaying absolute ignorance of the events (FACTS) that took place prior to Mr Churchill becoming prime minister.
No doubt today if Obama had been in Chamberlain's place Poland would have been dumped as regards the treaty it had with Britain, and still the British would have been even more shocked months later by the course of events, shocked I say.
Mr. Hitler did not keep his word with the Russians even after signing a non-aggression pact
because
Hitler suggested in Mein Kampf ("My Struggle"), some 16 years earlier, that he would invade the Soviet Union, stating that the German people needed Lebensraum, land and raw materials, and that these should be found in the east. Nazi racial ideology cast the Soviet Union as populated by "untermenschen" ethnic Slavs ruled by their "Jewish Bolshevik" masters.
Take them at their word and let THEM prove differently.
EV,
Not every Leftist has bad intentions. Many actually believe in Unicorns and Rainbows.
Well, I suppose those under the influence of glue or whatever they are popping, but the leaders do have bad intentions.
Sophia,
Persia and Turkey, Egypt and Lebanon and other North African states
Persia=Iran under control of an apocalyptic sect., which thinks nothing of killing its own to maintain control. When do you think those cosmopolitan types will sit down and compromise?
Iran which has in its services thug n°1 Syria, and now Turkey, and uses its Foreign Legion, Hezbollah under the watchful eye of Syria, to control Lebanon and lead the onslaught against Israel's northern flank while providing diplomatic cover for Syrian hegemony.
Egypt, Libya cosmopolitan?
Lebanon has been HIJACKED, as 4 planes were hijacked on 9/11, by suicidal islamofascist SCUM.
Syria and the islamofascist regime of iran are willing to SACRIFICE Lebanon to advance their islamofascist/baathist agenda.