Thursday, August 31, 2006
This is a special guest post and welcome to Jewish Advocate readers. Our friend Seva Brodsky has written a letter to the editor with a promise of a longer online version. Below is his letter, and in the extended entry is the longer version (also cross-posted at the Jewish Russian Telegraph) promised in the piece. Everything below this paragraph is written by Seva.
Having read the poignant editorial in the previous issue of The Advocate about ADL's involvement with Camp IF (for "interfaith"), I feel compelled to add a few more words.
I would like to quote from Menachem Begin's book, The Revolt. Story of the Irgun, regarding the official Jewish institutions' "complacency ... [and] negligence which sprang directly from a pitiable lack of political vision":
"No foreigner, however friendly he may be, can claim for a nation more than its own official representatives demand. ... The decisive blunders of the Zionist leaders did not arise from ill-will, but from wishful thinking and illusions."
First, I heard the report on WBUR's version of NPR's Morning Edition (Summer Camp Explores Religions, 08/22/2006), then read two Boston Globe articles, A different kind of camp (04/06/2006) and the more recent Religious differences unite campers (08/21/2006), as well as the latest Advocate editorial (Keep religious rituals sacred, 08/254/2006). All I can do in my bewilderment is to pose the following questions to Andrew Tarsy, the New England head of the ADL:
Would you believe a Soviet Communist Party operative promoting the advantages of Soviet Socialism over the decaying capitalist West?
Just how much do the leaders of ADL know about Islam and Islamism, anyway? What sources do they use? Would you like me to recommend good books and articles on the subject? I hope that ADL offices have good in-house libraries. If you don't, let me know – I'll donate some of my books.
Does the ADL really believe in the much touted but nonetheless untrue "religion-of-peace" inventions with which we are being bombarded from almost every direction, save for a handful conservative media outlets?
Is ADL attempting to replicate the failure of Israel's own "Potemkin village" at Neve Shalom?
Are you familiar with the common concept of the "Prisoner's Dilemma"?
A more complete version of this letter can be read at www.JRTelegraph.com and/or at www.Solomonia.com
Complete version:
"No foreigner, however friendly he may be, can claim for a nation more than its own official representatives demand." -- From, Menachem Begin, The Revolt. Story of the Irgun, Steimatzky, 2003, p. 306.
"The decisive blunders of the Zionist leaders did not arise from ill-will, but from wishful thinking and illusions." M.Begin, The Revolt, Ch. XXV, p. 325.
"Unlike the official Jewish institutions, we could not accuse ourselves of negligence. ... The official Jewish institutions had enormous sums at their disposal. ... [W]hat a toll in lives could have been saved ... had it not been for the complacency ... [and] negligence which sprang directly from a pitiable lack of political vision?" pp. 338-9 of The Revolt.
-- All of the emphasis above and below is mine -- S.B.
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Dear Andy:
I would have preferred to discuss this matter in private, as this has been your desire all along, but since you are a public figure who publicly came out with some statements recently, I felt justified in addressing those issues in a public forum.
1. I have recently heard a WBUR report (August 22, 2006, see news item #1 below, referring to http://www.wbur.org/news/2006/60307_20060822.asp) that described ADL's program at its Camp IF in NH and went on to give you an opportunity to say a few words about it. I could not believe my ears -- "dismayed" does not begin to describe my reactions to that report -- "outraged" would begin to come closer to the truth.
2. Then I read the editorial on the same topic in The Jewish Advocate (news item #2: link to Advocate editorial), which, while trying to be diplomatic and balanced, rather adequately addressed some contentious issues in the whole matter, but did not address some of the most important aspects that caused so much anger for so many readers.
3. Then, out of curiosity, I decided to read the reviews of Sohaib Sultan's book on Amazon.com -- he is the teacher of Islam in your camp -- see item #3 below.
4. Finally, I read two Globe articles about this camp, which were linked to from the WBUR website -- news item #4: (link to Globe article), as well as news item #5:
5. (Link to second Globe article) -- #4 & 5 allowed me to have a look into parallel virtual reality -- kumbaya all the way.
Let's address the issues by going in the order suggested above. This will take us some time to get through, but as you are a trained lawyer, you should be able to appreciate the effort I put into presenting this case methodically and meticulously and should be able to follow my logic.
As is my habit, I am Cc-ing a number of people whom I consider VIPs, and many more via Bcc. I hereby kindly ask the recipients to spread the word.
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1. Please read the segment description and listen to the audio below (http://www.wbur.org/news/2006/60307_20060822.asp) -- is this mere harmless kumbaya or dangerous taqiyya? For the definitions and descriptions of that Islamic doctrine, see here, here, here, here, here, etc. -- there are many more entries one can find on Google, but these should be a good place to begin learning about the basics of the art of Islamic deception.
Here's a description of the radio segment:
Summer Camp Explores Religions
New Hampshire (August 22, 2006) At a summer camp in New Hampshire, religious difference is something to celebrate and study.
Summer Camp Explores Religions
By Shannon Mullen
New Hampshire - August 22, 2006 - Religious strife has dominated global headlines in recent months, with images of violence and destruction in the Middle East. But at a summer camp in New Hampshire, religious difference is something to celebrate and study.
The New England branch of the Jewish non-profit Anti-Defamation League is teaching teens to fight prejudice by learning about each other's spiritual traditions. Muslim, Jewish and Christian high school students from the Boston area, work with the Anti-Defamation League on projects that build interfaith understanding in their communities. The program, called "Camp If," that's short for inter-faith, begins with a week in the New Hampshire woods.
The following are some "highlights" from the 8-minute audio, cited at the beginning of the relevant passages with their corresponding time stamps:
1:55 -- The misleading explanation from Sohaib Sultan, an Islamic "scholar," who is the author of the "Koran for Dummies".
3:24 -- "Sultan asked the kids to save their follow-up questions for smaller discussion groups after lunch that were closed to non-campers" -- I wonder why they were closed ... Is it because he wanted to brainwash them without interference or supervision by any other adults, thus leaving no trace of his devious and harmful propaganda, except in the changed minds of the unsuspecting youngsters?
3:37 -- "Once they get here, they don't have any outside interruptions, interferences, norms, pressures operating -- they create their own norms, they create a culture" -- Andy Tarsy of ADL. Look who is enabling our good "scholar" Sohaib Sultan to do his evil deed of brainwashing ...
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2. I'll let the editorial stand for itself on its own merits -- I will just highlight the parts I considered especially poignant:
Keep religious rituals sacred
Thursday August 24 2006
Sometimes well-intentioned actions can lead to unintended consequences.
At a one-of-a-kind summer camp in New Hampshire, a group of diverse campers came together this summer, as they have for previous summers, to learn about each other's faiths. Camp IF (for "interfaith"), founded by the Anti-Defamation League of New England, seeks to break down barriers between young Muslims, Christians and Jews. The camp strives to promote tolerance -- and that's a commendable act. But the situation becomes a bit murkier upon further glance.
As the Boston Globe reported in an Aug. 21 front-page feature on Camp IF, Muslim youngsters led campers in a sing-along about Islam that included the recitation of the Shahadah, the Muslim proclamation that there is no God but Allah, whose messenger is Mohammad?
The Shahadah, meaning to "witness," is one of the five pillars of Islam (along with praying, fasting, giving alms and making a pilgrimage to Mecca), and by saying it aloud, a person is considered to give himself or herself to Islam. While it is a stretch to say that the non-Muslim campers suddenly converted to Islam when they participated in this sing-along, since there needs to be intention behind the act, the event does raise questions about the nature of interfaith efforts.
Religion is never something to take lightly. Religion may appear to become more accessible through a friendly, innocuous song about Islam -- especially when sung in the company of bubbly adolescents -- but that certainly does not mitigate the seriousness of religious belief and custom. Interfaith efforts risk whitewashing genuine religious differences.
In real life, we cannot afford to exist in the bubble of summer camp.
For Muslims, there is a holiness to the Shahadah, just as for Jews there is a holiness to the Shema. These proclamations and prayers, respectively, belong to Muslims and Jews only. They do not represent an element to be shared between religions in an effort of pan-understanding. Religion is not meant to serve as a springboard into a Utopian enclave for interfaith activists.
For instance, last month the Moishe/Kavod House of Brookline organized an interfaith text study with the Boston chapter of the Muslim American Society. Participants read various excerpts from the Torah and the Quran. Less than one week later, the Muslim American Society sponsored a rally protesting Israel's incursion into Lebanon. At this rally, Hezbollah sympathizers mingled with co-participants promoting human rights for Lebanese. Where was the interfaith coalition then? Real life got in the way. This rally was also the site where a Jewish man was assaulted for digitally recording the Boston City Hall Plaza event. [That Jewish man was yours truly]
It is wrong to shun those who celebrate different religions. But there is a difference between embracing someone else's religion to gain a nugget of understanding -- a nugget that is stripped of religious context -- and respecting diversity.
Recitation of the Shahadah by non-Muslims does not bring religious understanding between Muslims, Christians and Jews. It is not the magical solution. What it does do, though, is promote a false sense of religious tolerance. There are so many subtleties in religion, and its manifestation in politics, that simplification only obscures the real issues at hand. In this day and age, we can't afford to have the wool pulled over our eyes.
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3. Some of the more revealing Amazon.com reviews of The Koran for Dummies by Sohaib Sultan -- I'll let them speak for themselves.
Reviewer: F. munter - See all my reviews
Seems to me few people have really read the koran. I did! It's boring as hell, full of contradictions, threats and punishments and apparently neither the author nor the one who put it on paper were very much inspired. It's a pity it is so boring, otherwise more people would read it and become aware what a dangerous philosophy this is about. In the name of God, everything is possible and authorized. And think about this one: "Why don't they contemplate upon the Qur'an. Had it been originated from anyone besides Allah Ta'ala then it would have been beset with inconsistencies and contradictions" (S 4 V 82). It says it all, doesn't it?
This book is very misleading, January 7, 2006
Reviewer: Jay Linnstrom "James II" (Los Angeles, CA, USA) - See all my reviews
I really hope people will read the real Koran and not this politically correct white wash!
The real Koran is FILLED with threats, cursings, and just plain hatred towards disbelievers (= non muslims). In fact, that is a majority of Koranic contents! The Surahs of violent threats and curses (against disbelievers) are written out in every chapters of the Koran. Repeatedly!!
How can this 'dummy' book ignore all that?? I am usually a fan of 'Dummies' book. But unfortunately this is not an accurate overview of the Koran.
What a crock of bull, January 2, 2006
Reviewer: Exmuslim "Exmuslim, clean since 1990" (Tampa, FL USA) - See all my reviews
As an ex-muslim, I checked this because a friend said I should read it.
What I discovered is a complete load of manure. Either the author has never read the Koran, does not understand Arabic, or else is deliberately trying to whitewash this hateful, vile, violent religion.
This is like a book on Scientology written by a brainwashed scientologist, nothing more and nothing less. He should be ashamed for lying like this - but of course, lying to infidels is okay if it gets them to convert!
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Before we go on to the two somewhat lengthy Boston Globe articles, I would like to summarize here by posing a number of questions, lest I risk losing you and other readers due to the sheer amount of information presented, as well as due to the notorious shortness of a typical American attention span.
Do we really want to be the willing dupes and "useful idiots" for the Islamists? If so, why? If not, why does it appear that way?
Would you believe a KGB operative promoting the advantages of Soviet Socialism over the decaying capitalist West?
Just how much do the leaders of ADL know about Islam and Islamism? What sources do they use? Would you like me to recommend good books and articles on the subject?
Does the ADL really believe in the much-touted but nonetheless untrue "religion-of-peace" notions that we are being force-fed from almost every direction, save for a few conservative media outlets? See "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance" by Robert Spencer, and read the reviews. There are many other books on the subject -- I could easily cite at least a dozen books off the top of my head, dealing with this very topic -- I hope that ADL offices have good in-house libraries. If you don't, let me know -- I'll donate some of my books.
Are you familiar with the common concept of the "Prisoner's Dilemma"?
Is ADL trying to replicate the miserable failure of Israel's own "Potemkin Village" at Neve Shalom? If so, why? If not, why does it appear that way?
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4. The first Boston Globe article, kumbaya galore:
WESTON -- Take 80 teens of different faiths, throw them together for six days, and you just may have the ingredients for world peace.
The alumni of Camp IF set their sights high. Seven of them gathered at the Congregational Church of Weston last Sunday to talk about the summer camp for Muslim, Jewish, and Christian teens run by the New England branch of the Anti-Defamation League. The talk was sponsored by the Weston-Wayland Interfaith Action Group.
Mixed in with the usual camp activities like bonfires are discussions about customs, doctrines, and the similarities and differences among the different faiths. A kosher kitchen is available for Jewish participants observing strict dietary laws, and a halal one for Muslims. The participants talk about how they feel about their religious upbringing and about their experiences with discrimination. And in between all the structured activities, they chat about the sorts of things any group of teens would discuss: school, music, politics, movies, and TV shows.
Greg Speidel, a 17-year-old from Belmont, said he expects to encounter racism, homophobia, and other prejudice in his adult life, but he now feels obligated to challenge it.
''I know I can do that, because of Camp IF," Speidel said. He credits the program with making him more outgoing and open, not just to other faiths but to people in general.
Speidel became good friends at the camp with Muslim brothers Bilal and Ammaar Mirza of Framingham. They continue to get together occasionally.
Two-time camper Bobby Brennan said his parents urged him to attend, although he initially wasn't that excited about the idea.
''I had this image that when I got there it was just going to be a bunch of kids carrying Bibles, and 'God camp' didn't sound that appealing to me," said Brennan, an 18-year-old from Sherborn.
But he said all that changed by the end of the first day. ''You make some of the best friends at this camp. I learned things about Judaism and Islam, and more importantly the ways they connect to each other," said Brennan, who is Christian.
Brennan said he was one of many campers who got up before sunrise to join Muslim friends in the first of their five daily prayers.
Grace Gunderson, a 15-year-old from Sudbury, reinforces her camp experience by belonging to Lincoln-Sudbury High School's interfaith group. She's not shy about how meaningful her week at camp was. She described the bonds with her fellow campers as ''perhaps strong enough to one day, as we say at Camp IF, save the world."
Joe Mayher, a pastor at Weston Congregational Church and a founding partner of Camp IF, said that when the camp first began, some religious leaders and parents were concerned that it would lead to confusion and conversion. But Mayher said that many of the participants come away with a stronger connection to their own faith.
''Sometimes it's a hard sell" to make religious leaders understand how this will benefit their community, said Jennifer Smith, the ADL outreach director. ''It's a hard sell for parents, too, sending their child away -- they're concerned about how their child will be able to practice their religion in a pluralistic environment.
''After the second intifadah, lots of our communities have been suffering through mistrust," she added. ''It takes some convincing for people to understand that this is a safe environment."
Camp IF is the outgrowth of the Interfaith Youth Leadership Program, which began in 1996 as a six-month series of meetings among teens. The six-day camp was started three years ago and serves as a jumping-off point for the program's Regional Action Groups, where the teens collaborate on interfaith projects in their communities.
One group put together a presentation on other faiths for seventh-graders at a Catholic church. Another volunteered at a soup kitchen and used that as an opportunity to discuss their own dietary practices and traditional foods.
In the camp's first year, 40 high schoolers from New England gathered at Camp Micah in Bridgton, Maine. By last summer, the camp's third, attendance had doubled, said Smith. This year the camp is moving to Camp Kenwood-Evergreen in Potter Place, N.H.
In an interview after their presentation, the campers said that while some topics were tough to talk about at camp, nothing was really off limits. Brennan cited the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as one difficult area, in part because some of the Jewish participants in the program planned to go to Israel to serve in the army.
''One of the things you do is confront your own biases," said Speidel.
''For me, personally, I've gotten into very -- I wouldn't say heated, but intense -- discussions about 'The Passion of the Christ,' for example," said Rachael Bird, a 17-year-old Catholic from Marshfield. ''But one of the things about camp is [that] you're so open you can sort of go back to normal."
''We all recognize that we're friends," added 18-year-old Rachel Harvey of Canton, who is Jewish.
Besides, said Bilal Mirza, 18, ''one of the major points of attending the camp is dealing with these type of questions."
Mayher said the bonds fostered by spending a week in such close quarters is what makes the program work.
''The seeds of misunderstanding and hatred are already planted in our world. They're actively uprooting those," Mayher said of the campers. ''They're not just a group or a religion -- they're friends."
Slots are still available for this year's camp, to be held Aug. 15-21. Contact the ADL's New England office at 617-406-6300 or boston@adl.org. The camp is free and open to teens who have completed the ninth grade but haven't yet graduated from high school.
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5. The second Boston Globe article, yet more kumbaya:
Religious differences unite campers
Christians, Jews, Muslims mix, play, teach, and learn
By Michael Levenson, Globe Staff | August 21, 2006
Then Usamah Suhrawardy, 15, dressed in a white robe and white cap, passed around song sheets and led the campers in song. ``Allah, there is only one God," the campers sang, quietly at first and then more boldly, as they learned the tune and lyrics. ``And Mohammed is his messenger."
And when it came time for a question-and-answer session, Fatima Omuhammed-Ighile, 16, explained to a curious camper that it is not hard for her to fast for 30 days during Ramadan.
``You get into the Ramadan spirit," Omuhammed-Ighile said. ``I don't know why. I get extra nice to people. It's like Christmas."
This was Islam Day at Camp IF, a chance for the Muslim campers to explain a religion that some of the Jewish and Christian campers knew only through televised images of war, terrorism, and strife in the Middle East.
The camp, for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim teenagers, most of them from Massachusetts, is dedicated to providing a more personal understanding of religious differences by letting campers play together and talk openly about their beliefs. Thursday was Judaism Day: In between relay races and dips in the pond, Jewish campers unrolled the scrolls of a Torah and taught the basics of their faith. And yesterday, gathered again by the campfire, Christian teenagers explained the significance of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the notion of salvation through Christ.
Islam Day sparked a debate at the camp about the war in Iraq, the recent fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, and the breakup of a suspected plot to bomb US-bound airliners. In the dining hall, on the tennis court, by the pond, the campers asked: What is jihad? Is the United States making things worse in Iraq? Does Islam condone suicide bombings?
Rather than let such questions tear them apart, the campers said that being allowed to ask them and wrestling with the answers brought them closer together.
``Coming to the camp, all I knew about Islam was what's portrayed in the media," said Vincent Maniscalco, 16, a Catholic camper from Danvers. ``So coming here was just a mind-blowing experience. And learning about Judaism, Unitarian Universalism, learning all about these different religions helped strengthen my faith, brought me closer to who I call God, and brought me closer to people of other faiths."
Omuhammed-Ighile agreed.
``Even if we're discussing whether Hezbollah is a terrorist group," she said, ``afterward we can still be friends and go play soccer."
Camp IF -- the name is short for Interfaith -- was founded four years ago by the Anti-Defamation League of New England, a Jewish organization that tries to eradicate anti-Semitism. The camp combines intense discussions, carefree play, and religious worship. Five times daily, starting at 4:45 a.m., Muslim campers pray together. Jews hold prayer services three times daily, and Christians gather for one or two services. The services are open to all.
The dining hall serves food that is kosher for Jews and halal for Muslims. Friday's lunch was tuna melts, salad, and onion rings. Only some activities exclude members of other faiths. Jewish girls use the pond alone as a ritual bath, and some Muslim girls swim separately from boys, out of respect for the girls' modesty.
At any given time, one group of campers might be debating Iranian politics under a shade tree, while others play kickball or hit the ropes course.
``By the end of the week, they are so close to each other, it's a bond you cannot break," said Farhana Mirza, 50, a counselor who is the camp's self-proclaimed Muslim Mama. ``Nobody has the same similarities, but still they are close."
The highlight for many is the campfire discussion of religion, an unbridled exchange that allows campers to ask questions they might never raise in school. On Friday, they grilled Sohaib Sultan, a Muslim chaplain and author of ``The Koran for Dummies."
On Ramadan, ``If you faint, do you break your fast?" asked Peter Morency, 15, a Westford teen wearing a Red Sox T-shirt. Sultan said you probably do, because it would be best to eat.
Another teenager raised a hand and asked whether Islam condones suicide bombings.
``The concept of suicide is completely forbidden," Sultan said.
Moishe Mindick, 17, a Jewish camper from Sharon who had heatedly discussed with several Muslim campers about whether Iran wants to ``wipe Israel off the map," said he appreciated getting to hash out the issues at Camp IF.
``It's been an eye-opening experience," Mindick said. ``It's cool to be able to see that Muslim kids are like me, and that they want peace."
Camp IF charges no fees, but the teenagers must agree to meet throughout the year to work on projects. In the past, campers have made a video to teach tolerance for religious differences and have served food in a soup kitchen. Inspired by his experience at Camp IF last summer, Maniscalco started a bimonthly prayer service at his high school, St. John's Preparatory School in Danvers, which welcomes people of any religion.
``I don't look at this camp as this one little week in the summertime that I'll look back on in a photo album and say, `Gee that was great,' " Maniscalco said. ``This is more of a life lesson. I'm taking the values here and carrying them on for the rest of my life."
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"No foreigner, however friendly he may be, can claim for a nation more than its own official representatives demand." -- From, Menachem Begin, The Revolt. Story of the Irgun, Steimatzky, 2003, p. 306.
"The decisive blunders of the Zionist leaders did not arise from ill-will, but from wishful thinking and illusions." M.Begin, The Revolt, Ch. XXV, p. 325.
"Unlike the official Jewish institutions, we could not accuse ourselves of negligence. ... The official Jewish institutions had enormous sums at their disposal. ... [W]hat a toll in lives could have been saved ... had it not been for the complacency ... [and] negligence which sprang directly from a pitiable lack of political vision?" pp. 338-9 of The Revolt.
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I wonder if anyone actually made it this far -- if someone did, let me know -- I'll buy you lunch? :-)
Hello,
This is a great blog. I'm going to be sure to link yours to mine. Would you mind doing the same for me?
Thank you very much.
My site:
www.americanlegends.blogspot.com
Take care,
Mark
Seva, a few lucid, clearly explained points would be far more effective than dumping your whole hard drive into a single post.
The Jewish Advocate editorial about the Shahada makes a worthwhile point in a reasonable, clear way. Burying it under a blizzard of verbatim articles, deranged Amazon reviews and mysterious, cryptic references to the Prisoners' Dilemma and Neve Shalom adds nothing useful.
The most charitable interpretation I can give your "letter" is that you're starting from the assumption that ISLAM = BAD!!!! and that referring to any link between the ADL and Muslims therefore constitutes an argument. If people don't share that assumption, then you're simply raving at them.
JSinger, you are right, to a degree. As you can see for yourself, most of the more lucid and explained points were in the beginning of the posting, with the rest being the evidentiary basis.
Another problem was my chronic shortage of time, so I decided that doing something, however imperfect, was still better than doing nothing.
I did NOT bury anything under under "a blizzard of verbatim articles" -- as I said, I quoted them in full for the sake of those readers who prefer everything in one place, and I presented my views and arguments in the beginning, so that some people would not lose much by stopping to read then and there -- it is not for you to judge what's best for the hundreds of folks who'd be reading the mailing and/or the posting. Sure, it may cost a bit more in terms of bandwidth. But it's straight text, no pictures, video, or audio imbedded, so please chill it, OK?
As for the "deranged Amazon reviews" -- again, it is not for you to make the decision on behalf of everyone who reads this piece -- people can read them and decide for themselves. What are you, anyway -- the paragon of common sense? The golden standard to be measured against? Get off the high horse, why don't you?
The references to the Prisoners' Dilemma and Neve Shalom are neither "mysterious" nor "cryptic" -- whoever is interested but knows nothing about them can do his own Googling -- I was trying to save space, as I was limited by the word limit imposed by the Jewish Advocate.
Those references in fact do add something useful for those who care enough, as the allusions and similarities are quite illuminating for those who understand, and those who care to learn.
As for your "charitable interpretation" -- it is none of my concern, as you are perfectly free to interpret it any which way you want. Most people who responded to me by now understood exactly what I was trying to say (read the next response I am about to post) and are sharing my views, so get over it.
Here's the response from one of the people I put in the Bcc list:
From: elaine
Date: August 31, 2006 12:12:49 PM EDT
To: "Seva Brodsky", "Andrew Tarsy"
Cc: "Nancy Kaufman" , "Larry Lowenthal" , "Barry Shrage" , "Alan Ronkin" , et al.
Subject: RE: In re ADL vis-a-vis Camp IF & Islam
Seva,
Thank you for all your time and effort in writing this piece, and responding to the travesty of Camp IF. Sadly, when I heard the same report on WBUR I just shrugged because this is what I have come to expect from ADL under Tarsy's leadership. I don't know under what rock this man lives, but he is hopelessly out of touch with reality! This is the same person who was quoted in an interview shortly after becoming the NE director of ADL stating, "AntiSemitism is a thing of the past." Does this statement not say it all?
After receiving a request for donations from ADL, I responded negatively and unequivocally by voicing my discontent over their choice of NE Director and gave several reasons to justify my outrage. Immediately, I received an email from Tarsy requesting a 'private discussion.' I did not even bother responding because I am so hopelessly despaired by his vision [or lack thereof]. What could one possibly say to someone who is living in a psychotic state of perpetual dissonance between the world of fantasia and the world of reality in which the rest of us must exist?
Therefore, I say kudos to you Seva for not responding "privately," per Tarsy's request, and instead doing what you did, which was to bring this to the attention of the Jewish community at-large. And knowing the size of your contact data base, that is a pretty accurate statement.
It is pointless in conversing and "dialoguing" as our mainstream Jewish orgs., like to say...They spend an inordinate amount of time [and our money] engaging in this type of futile excercise, to no avail. The "Jewish/Muslim" dialogue groups [which by the way, are with the "moderate" ISB] of our esteemed AJC and JCRC are a perfect case in point. But sadly, if they only produced no results it would be better than the harm they produce by creating a false sense of security and a perception that progress and real understanding is being achieved. [a little sardonic irony: the word Takiya in Arabic sounds a little like the Hebrew word "Litkoah" which roughly translates into getting shafted].
But, the last laugh of course is on us. It's time the Jewish community, through activists such as yourself, start waking up the public and getting them involved. I am happy to report that exactly such action is beginning to take place. A newly formed organization, CJUI, for example, is attracting new members by the day, and the common thread that joins them is their outright disgust and discontent with mainstream Jewish organizations. Rather than supporting mainstream Jewish organizations, they are opting instead to expend their resources, volunteering their time and donating their money, and are investing in grass roots groups to get out a message that has been stymied all too long . Sadly, much of the current agenda is "damage control" and remediation for the stupidity and actions taken by our mainstream Jewish community "leaders." But happily, lots of progress is also being made on several other fronts, which of course our mainstream organizations are totally oblivious to or complacent about.
Elaine
Why do you consider Neve Shalom a Potemkin Village?
Ron, I consider Neve Shalom a Potemkin Village because it does not represent anything real -- it's a fake, a farce, a delusional bout of wishful thinking which only serves to obfuscate the real issues and problems.
Kumbaya is fine only after there is real peace. Short of that, such endeavors are more misleading and harmful than they are worth, as they tend to dupe people into a false sense of security.
Just my $0.02
Why do teenage Jewish girls need a ritual bath?
Anyway, I would not be surprised if some of the muslims were using this camp as a stalking horse, but it doesn't sound like anyone was indoctrinated. If they had 3 daily services for the Jews as well as a kosher kitchen, I don't see that they were encouraged to be estranged form their faith. Although I would be curious who joined in with whose religious rituals.
About singing the acceptance of Islam - that's not good, I agree with the idea that people shouldn't just recite each other's religious scriptures. I bet a lot of the Jewish kids would not feel comfortable singing "Silent Night," why would singing the "shahada" be any different?
The quotes were about "heated discussions" - that's fine. I don't get the sense that the Jews just sat there and let the Muslims tell them Israel was wrong.
All in all - I think you are being somewhat alarmist, although the situation bears watching.
In other words we should make no peaceful overtures until we have a "real peace"? How are we to get to that peace? Also, it is a false assumption that all those who try to work with Muslims trust them completely or are not standing firmly within our own tradition. To ignore all Muslims and to assume they are all our enemy only feeds the propaganda of their extremist members. I agree that the only way to read your article is to assume that Islam is an evil religion by nature. I believe that all religions have their negative aspects as well as their positive ones. At different times one aspect or the other is dominant, but it does us no good to condemn a billion people, it only puts us on the level of their most evil spokesmen.
I think the ritual bath is the Jewish version of "menstration is evil and girls should clense themselves after it". Just like Jewish women aren't supposed to share the bed when they're menstrating either I believe.
But does anyone actually follow this stuff? I can understand some ignorant tribe banishing the women for a natural body process, but surely in this day and age we know better..
Marion,
Indeed, "we should make no peaceful overtures until we have a 'real peace'" -- why should we? We are being killed, lied to, misled, manipulated, undermined economically, socially, culturally, etc. Why should we accommodate our enemies? To hasten our demise? I do not have suicidal tendencies -- do you?
"How are we to get to that peace?"
Well, for starters, it would be nice to just win the war, and then dictate to the vanquished what the terms are for their continued existence -- a la the Allies vs. Germany, Italy and Japan at the end of WW-II.
Then, we would have to teach them that lying is bad, not productive in the long term, and not conducive to real peace. And if we catch them in the act of purposeful lying, then we impose and appropriate punishment, etc.
Then we let them be educated in the proper sense of the word, and maybe even help them in that noble endeavor. Etc.
BTW, a lot of this is happening in Iraq right now, under the most difficult of circumstances. But you won't find such reports in the MSM -- one has to make a conscious effort to discover the truth.
Speaking of which, our MSM must also be taught a few lessons, and should stop using their power and influence to tell us half truths, covering up for our enemies. We got too many sickos in our own ranks.
"Also, it is a false assumption that all those who try to work with Muslims trust them completely or are not standing firmly within our own tradition."
I never said I made such an assumption. However, I can usually tell taqiyya when I smell it, and I sure detected that odor in that story.
"To ignore all Muslims and to assume they are all our enemy only feeds the propaganda of their extremist members."
I agree.
"I agree that the only way to read your article is to assume that Islam is an evil religion by nature."
Well, since you mentioned the untouchable subject -- yes, Islam CAN be "an evil religion by nature" -- it all depends on the interpretation. I have met a number of wonderful peaceful Muslims; however, most of them did not come from the Arab world, but from black African countries, etc.
"I believe that all religions have their negative aspects as well as their positive ones. At different times one aspect or the other is dominant, but it does us no good to condemn a billion people, it only puts us on the level of their most evil spokesmen."
Marion, have YOU actually read the Q'uran? It should prove to be quite an eye-opener, and in many respects, too.
You have made a number of assumptions and claims -- "I believe that ..." -- how do you know they are true? Just how deeply have you delved into the history of the world's religions, and how closely have you read their sources? How familiar are you with the modern interpretations of those sources?
Please hit the books.