In the case that he wasn't lying, it means the teaching of history has long gone down the drain there. A wonderful choice between a trefah and a nevelah.

Israel's been touting the "War brings peace" line a lot too..

Reminds me of a cartoon (queue the predictable "anti-semite" protests because of the comment on the politics of Israel): A leunig cartoon for "The Age" in Australia.

Incidentally this was pulled and not published by the editor in chief Michael Gawenda.. Leunig alleged that Gawenda had done this because of his Jewish religion, as it was the first time one of his cartoons had been refused for publication.

I think it's a rather interesting political commentary and worth a bit of thinking about..

ChillWinston said: Israel's been touting the "War brings peace" line a lot too..

ZionistYoungster replies: Very comparable. Not.

"Work makes free" is the exact wording on the gates of Nazi death camps. The most you can say about "War brings peace" is that it reminds you of one of the slogans in Orwell's 1984.

Israel hasn't been touting the "War brings peace" line since at least 1993 (the Oslo Accords). The actions of our Muslim enemies look very much like forcing us to tout it, leaving us no alternative.

Oh, and as for those Jewish-Nazi comparisons...

"Genocide" means: "The mass extermination of human beings, of a particular race or nation".

Number of Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza in 1967: 1.1 Million

Number of Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002: 3.5 Million

If we're Nazis then it looks like we're not our doing job very well, Mr. Leunig.

See also: http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html

PIMF

"not our doing" -> "not doing our"

ChillWinston, that cartoon is odious, and the comparison profoundly flawed. For Israel war brings self defense. It's not as if the country had much choice; the peace Israel wants is not a peace predicated on its own destruction. Israel isn't voluntarily choosing war as its ideal goal, as the Nazis did building those camps. This is really stupid! I think that you're deliberately trying to be provocative and don't mind much what fatuous material you use. At least, I hope that's what's going on here. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your own intelligence.

As for the "arbeit macht frei" slogan, well, here's more proof that the Europeans' much vaunted "sense of history" is not what it's cracked up to be.

ZY: The war brings peace bit is alive and well. The recent military action is proof of that.

Also, the nazi treatment of undesirables (jews, gypsies, dissenters, homosexuals etc) involved killings, torture, mass imprisonment, imposition of restrictions on their day to day activities.. All of which is stuff Israel is no stranger to with respect to the Palestinians. The number of people Israel imprisoned, tortured and abused is ridiculously high (something like over half a million since 1967).
That Israel is doing ANY of this is hypocracy of the highest order.

Joanne: Same sort of answer as for ZY. Israel did have a choice, they chose the more agressive one. If someone was twisting Israel's arm to cluster bomb civilian areas and take out electric plants, airports and bridges.
As for camps: look at Israel's history with arbitary imprisonment of large numbers of palestinians (I remember reading there was one year alone that they arrested 50 thousand people).. Sure, we're not talking millions, but we're also not talking justifiable, legitimate detainment either are we? There were many many reports of torture and violations of human rights. Even in South Africa they only managed to lock up a few thousand dissenters under apartheid. So Israel is clearly out of line.
The slash and burn approach to civilian infrastructure each time Israel decides to flex its muscles does nothing to hurt the "enemy" unless the enemy is the civilian population.

Since we're talking reasons to compare with the nazi regime: your argument that there is no choice but to defend Israel is exactly what the nazis said about the jewish threat. "They're trying to take over", "they are a threat to the german/european way of life" etc etc. Just like there are (ignorant) holocaust deniers, there seem to be Israeli immoral behaviour deniers.

Please keep your arrogant "you must be dumb cos I disagree with you" type comment about doubting my intelligence to yourself..

ChillWinston says: Also, the nazi treatment of undesirables (jews, gypsies, dissenters, homosexuals etc) involved killings, torture, mass imprisonment, imposition of restrictions on their day to day activities.. All of which is stuff Israel is no stranger to with respect to the Palestinians. The number of people Israel imprisoned, tortured and abused is ridiculously high (something like over half a million since 1967).

ZionistYoungster replies: Whatever of your charges are not outright lies are context-free accusations. Let's see:

Killings: Oh, poor Yassin and Rantissi, how dare those cruel Israelis kill people who preach and organize suicide bombings in shopping malls and pizza parlors.

Torture: without which the recent airlines plot would not have been foiled. But we'd rather have the moral high ground than stay alive, right?

Mass imprisonment: imprisonment of those who want to blow themselves up in shopping malls and pizza parlors; mass imprisonment because there are quite a lot of them. What does that say about their society? Nah, we'd rather blame Israel and the USA, never the other side, which is a "blameless victim of Western colonialism".

Imposition of restrictions on their day to day activities: when their day to day activities involve making suicide vests for blowing themselves up in shopping malls and rockets for firing onto Israeli towns within the internationally recognized borders, then yes, I admit the charge.

CW: That Israel is doing ANY of this is hypocracy of the highest order.

ZY: No, that the Left, supposedly standing for human liberties, has allied itself with Islamofascism against the West (that is the USA and Israel) is hypocrisy of the highest order. If the Muslims win, they won't spare your lives just because you aided them in that. You're nothing more than their useful idiots, to be discarded once you've outlived your usefulness.

CW: Israel did have a choice, they chose the more agressive one.

ZY: Nope, in 1993 we chose land for peace. We got suicide bombers blowing themselves up in our shopping malls and seaside bars. The Muslims are the ones who had, and still have, the choice but are choosing, without fail, the more aggressive one.

CW: (I remember reading there was one year alone that they arrested 50 thousand people).. Sure, we're not talking millions, but we're also not talking justifiable, legitimate detainment either are we? There were many many reports of torture and violations of human rights.

ZY: Verifiable sources, please. For all I know, you could be quoting Nasrallah himself.

CW: The slash and burn approach to civilian infrastructure each time Israel decides to flex its muscles does nothing to hurt the "enemy" unless the enemy is the civilian population.

ZY: The only parts of Lebanon targeted were those where Israel knew Hizbullah to reside. The fact that Hizbullah has no qualms about hiding among the civilian population, reaping their casualties for propaganda points against Israel, did not help matters.

CW: Since we're talking reasons to compare with the nazi regime: your argument that there is no choice but to defend Israel is exactly what the nazis said about the jewish threat.

ZY: Except that the Nazi assessment of the Jews was based on libels and conspiracy theories, whereas our assessment of the Islamic threat is based on the reality that goes on the world every day. Such as bombings in Thailand, for example (what are the Muslims' "legitimate grievances" there, I wonder?). But it takes a "reality-based" leftist to deny reality.

CW: Please keep your arrogant "you must be dumb cos I disagree with you" type comment about doubting my intelligence to yourself..

ZY: You're dumb not because you disagree with me, but because you're deluded and cling to your delusion. You, and nearly the entire Left, are dumb because you think Muslims are your allies in resistance of Western imperialism, when the truth is that they're using you for waging the war of Islamic imperialism against the whole non-Muslim world. I doubt you'll wake up even when you're in the same state as Fox reporters Centanni and Wiig.

ZY:
By killings I mean:
* deaths in custody
* the recent attack that killed about a thousand people
* "incidental" killings like checkpoint shootings, botched raids on houses etc
Where you get

Torture:
- I really don't know what to say to this if you think that torture is acceptable. Torture is banned under international law for a reason: you torture someone they might be telling the truth, so you inflict pain and in many cases death to get a "truth" out of someone that doesn't exist. Information gained under torture is unreliable because people will say anything to stop the pain. In a decent moral society torture is banned. You aren't exactly disputing my points by excusing it.

Mass imprisonment: I'm talking about locking up men, women and children for no reason. Only a small number of people are suicide bombers, yet thousands and thousands have been locked up for no reason other than some twit with a gun decided they wanted to teach that person a lesson. Raids on houses for no reason (back in the civilised world we require warrants in order to enter someone's house and they don't smash walls down as part of it).

ZY: "Imposition of restrictions on their day to day activities: when their day to day activities involve making suicide vests for blowing themselves up in shopping malls and rockets for firing onto Israeli towns within the internationally recognized borders, then yes, I admit the charge."

So that negates anyone's right to move about their own country freely? Or the right to get to a hospital in a timely manner. Yep, that's a fine reason for a imposing worse than a police state on them. Again, how is this different from the Nazis or in some way justified?

Your lines of argument excuse everything the nazis did pretty much: torture's fine cos it might achieve a goal, imprisonment, killing, police state.

ZY: "No, that the Left, supposedly standing for human liberties, has allied itself with Islamofascism against the West (that is the USA and Israel) is hypocrisy of the highest order."

This rolls back to the "you're either with us or against us" stupidity. What exactly do you think the left has to say about Saudi hanging some girl cos she talked back to a judge: they were outraged.
Since someone has to be either right or left in your world: what about the Right then: "abortion is bad - you can't kill a human being! War is good - f*ck those terrorist scumbags and anyone even near 'em they had it coming".

ZY: "The only parts of Lebanon targeted were those where Israel knew Hizbullah to reside. The fact that Hizbullah has no qualms about hiding among the civilian population, reaping their casualties for propaganda points against Israel, did not help matters."

Ok, so let's look at where Hizbullah must have been hiding:
* In power stations
* on the runway at the airport
* in bridges
* on roads

The resulting oil slick from the power station has been called the worst environmental disaster in the middle east since the gulf war (where sadam started pumping oil out into the water)

Yup.. Sorry to break YOUR propaganda. They deliberately bombed civilian infrastructure. There are also lots of civilians who were killed if you recall. But then again Israel would never bomb anyone but the enemy would it? Oh wait: http://www.ussliberty.org/ the USS Liberty..
Many human rights watch groups have called Israel to cease the violations of international law designed to protect civilians..

ZY: Except that the Nazi assessment of the Jews was based on libels and conspiracy theories, whereas our assessment of the Islamic threat is based on the reality that goes on the world every day. Such as bombings in Thailand, for example (what are the Muslims' "legitimate grievances" there, I wonder?). But it takes a "reality-based" leftist to deny reality.

So now it's not about fighting the radical group to prevent Israeli casualties due to a few rocket attacks. Now it's Jews vs the Islamic threat. Good, you've now reduced things further to the level of "All muslims are a scourge and a threat and should be illiminated".

ZY: You're dumb not because you disagree with me, but because you're deluded and cling to your delusion. You, and nearly the entire Left, are dumb because you think Muslims are your allies in resistance of Western imperialism, when the truth is that they're using you for waging the war of Islamic imperialism against the whole non-Muslim world. I doubt you'll wake up even when you're in the same state as Fox reporters Centanni and Wiig.

It's you who are the ignorant one because you think that everything is a simplistic either "with us or against us". You're also incapable of accepting that Israel might not be acting in a decent manner at times.

Are you getting your lines from O'rielly cos it sounds like the sort of garbage he spouts. Those who are not with you right wing thugs are NOT suddenly against everything western. Wanting a higher level of moral behaviour or a more compassionate society is not a bad thing. Sure it might mean you have less footage of people getting blown up and less opportunities to get a hard on over civilian casualties, but that's the price you pay I'm afraid.

If Israel is a civilised nation it wouldn't be doing all this dodgy sh*t like torture, assassination, enforcement of a police state on the palestinians. It would also start listening to the UN when it calls on it to start acting like a decent world citizen.

You go on about muslims being backward - sure, there's a lot of uneducated, ignorant, mysoginistic, morons who are muslim. But that's true of every religion. There's also a lot of violations of people's rights under muslim nations. How is that relevant to what Israel does? It's all fine and good if you are happy having Israel in the company of barbaric nations that do that sort of stuff, but perhaps I'm assuming you're wanting Israel to join the civilised world one day..

ChillWinston says:

By killings I mean:
* deaths in custody
* the recent attack that killed about a thousand people
* "incidental" killings like checkpoint shootings, botched raids on houses etc
Where you get

ZionistYoungster replies: Anyone can regurgitate CounterPunch talking points at random, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still talking from the comfort of your armchair. If you lived on the England-Scotland border and your neighbors to the north did what the "Palestinians" are doing to us, you'd be singing a different tune.

To sum it up: whatever we're really doing (as opposed to stagings, lies and Photoshop), we aren't doing this out of a burning desire. There's a grim necessity in this land, which you as yet don't understand; but the way things are going, with the Muslims of Britain already showing brazenness for demanding foreign policy change and state recognition of their holidays, you'll soon understand. A left-winger is only so until mugged by reality.

CW: I really don't know what to say to this if you think that torture is acceptable.

ZY: Uh, let's see... I'm a monster because I think torturing a few people suspected to know details of terrorist plots are acceptable, but you--you're an angel, a saint, because you think it's better to let attempts to blow up scores of women and children in shopping malls (G-d forbid!) succeed, in the name of anti-colonial resistance.

Don't you ever get vertigo from standing on that moral high ground?

CW: So that negates anyone's right to move about their own country freely? Or the right to get to a hospital in a timely manner. Yep, that's a fine reason for a imposing worse than a police state on them.

ZY: If we're into Nazi comparisons... you know what the biggest problem with Nazi Germany was? It was you couldn't say the fish stank from the head, depose the ruling class and be done with it all; the trouble was the ruling class had ground-up support, from willing executioners. The "Palestinians" are no different: the mothers there are only too glad to wrap mock-suicide-belts on their babies, and to send them with real ones once they're grown up. In a war between civilized peoples, you can trust the women and children to stay out of the battlefield; not so here.

CW: This rolls back to the "you're either with us or against us" stupidity.

ZY: "Stupidity". Heaven forfend contemplating the possibility that the truth may sometimes really be black-and-white. I don't say it always is, but you say it never is.

CW: What exactly do you think the left has to say about Saudi hanging some girl cos she talked back to a judge: they were outraged.

ZY: Oh, "outraged". "Bad boy, write 300 lines before lunch!" But going the extra mile in actually combating the Islamic threat is warmongering.

CW:

Ok, so let's look at where Hizbullah must have been hiding:
* In power stations
* on the runway at the airport
* in bridges
* on roads

ZY: If not hiding, then using them as bases for attacks and rocket launchers. And again, it was all in Hizbullah-land. In Beirut, for example, all the parts other than Hizbullah's neighborhood looked like there was nothing going on.

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/beirut2_2.jpg

CW: The resulting oil slick from the power station has been called the worst environmental disaster in the middle east since the gulf war (where sadam started pumping oil out into the water)

ZY: Environmentalist organizations are usually Leftists, so it's a grain of salt again. Assuming the truth of it: 1) It wasn't on purpose, do you understand that? Like, what would we stand to gain from that? It's looking like a modern version of the medieval slander of Jews as well-poisoners. 2) It's not like the Muslims care much for Mother Earth either.

CW: Many human rights watch groups have called Israel to cease the violations of international law designed to protect civilians..

ZY: Scratch a "human rights watch" group nowadays, and you'll almost always find a left-wing sponsor of anti-American, anti-Israel, antiwar, pro-Islam, pro-terrorism ideology behind it.

CW: Now it's Jews vs the Islamic threat.

ZY: Yes, but it's not "now", it's always been that way. The only thing that's "now" is the urgency of it, because, you know, the Muslims have gotten confident about their ability to put forward their imperialistic plans, thanks in no small part to sympathizers and appeasers like you.

CW: Good, you've now reduced things further to the level of "All muslims are a scourge and a threat and should be illiminated".

ZY: No, make that "Islam is a scourge and a threat and should be eliminated", and not by eliminating the Muslims themselves, but by de-Islamizing the world, just as the Allies denazified Germany after WWII (but, as I recalled, you called that "crap").

CW: It's you who are the ignorant one because you think that everything is a simplistic either "with us or against us".

ZY: The truth is sometimes complex, sometimes simple. Even you acknowledge that, in a way inverse of mine: according to you, it's a complex truth that there's more to things than Islam vs. non-Muslims, even though the facts are otherwise (tell me why Muslims are bombing Southern Thailand again), while you take quite a black-and-white stance upon the "evil and cruelty of Israel" and the "unjustifiability of its actions", even though the truth is more complex than your idealized picture of innocent natives wishing to live a peaceful life in the face of a colonialist oppressor.

We don't think that much different--we just have radically different views in our core assumptions, in our view as to the Big Picture.

CW: You're also incapable of accepting that Israel might not be acting in a decent manner at times.

ZY: It's not that, it's just that it isn't always possible to act in a decent manner with such an indecent enemy. Again, you don't understand now, you will understand later, and I only hope that'll be before it's too late.

CW: Are you getting your lines from O'rielly cos it sounds like the sort of garbage he spouts.

ZY: No, they're my own. After years of hearing on the news of an Israel that I know not to be real (because I live there, and have for a long time), I decided I wasn't taking it anymore. My motto: "To Every Libel on Israel an Answer". That's why I even go to Daily Kos, vomit-inducing though it may be, in order to counter those things.

CW: Those who are not with you right wing thugs are NOT suddenly against everything western.

ZY: Prove it. By providing aid and comfort to the Muslim imperialistic thugs, you show you aren't walking the walk.

CW: Wanting a higher level of moral behaviour or a more compassionate society is not a bad thing.

ZY: I agree, but not at the cost of our survival. And we expect the Muslims to want a higher level of moral behavior and a more compassionate society too, but they seem not to desire it at the time. Not with TV shows having three-year-old girls recite Koranic verses about Jews being apes and swine.

CW: If Israel is a civilised nation it wouldn't be doing all this dodgy sh*t like torture, assassination, enforcement of a police state on the palestinians.

ZY: It takes two to tango, bud. If the Palestinians were a civilized nation, they wouldn't be suicide bombing, featuring books like Mein Kampf on their bestsellers list and educating their children on hatred of Jews and the West. And the Palestinian state is a police state of its own accord, don't you forget that--not a free country like Israel is (and don't you argue with me about that--as I said, I'm a long-time citizen, while all you have is Biased British Corporation News).

CW: Sure it might mean you have less footage of people getting blown up and less opportunities to get a hard on over civilian casualties

ZY: I see the masks are falling off, aren't they? You think we like seeing people getting blown up? You think we're turned on over pictures of civilian casualties? No, that's a description of the Muslim enemy! They're the ones who keep showing that footage, that death porn, all the time. It's for them, not for us Jews, that death is a commodity.

CW: It would also start listening to the UN when it calls on it to start acting like a decent world citizen.

ZY: The UN wouldn't know decent behavior if it slapped it in the face. Annan is involved in corruption ("Oil for Food"), and is bloody with the sin of omission regarding Rwanda and now Sri Lanka (I didn't hear calls from him for any of the sides there to stop their "disproportionate response"). The UN, as Epaminondas of Infidel Bloggers Alliance said, is worse than the League of Nations.

CW: You go on about muslims being backward - sure, there's a lot of uneducated, ignorant, mysoginistic, morons who are muslim. But that's true of every religion.

ZY: The moment you hear about non-Muslims donning suicide vests and blowing themselves up in the midst of their enemies, give me a call. 'Til then, your moral equivalence ploy won't fly.

CW: It's all fine and good if you are happy having Israel in the company of barbaric nations that do that sort of stuff, but perhaps I'm assuming you're wanting Israel to join the civilised world one day..

ZY: Israel is already part of the civilized world, no matter what you say. The facts, namely that we educate our children for love of life and peace, and become warlike only by necessity of survival, speak for themselves.

And another thing: the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, are guilty only when G-d says they are guilty, not when the UN, the BBC or Human Rights Watch says so. Those organizations too are accountable to G-d, and He will give them retribution for their wrongs unless they change course. G-d is not the one described in the Koran, which is the work of one moonstruck human being.

Some quick points cos it's late and sleep calls:

Firstly: I'm Australian, not British. Easy to spot cos any sport they invented - we beat 'em in it. ;)

On the power station getting bombed and resulting environmental disaster: "1) It wasn't on purpose, do you understand that?"

Actually the Israeli reason for bombing the power plant was (roughly) "to stop the captured soldiers getting moved because it would mean darkness".
Check out the Israeli diplomat to England getting questioned #1 on this page: http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

I mean talk about garbage reason.

On torture:
- I see we're at a fundamental difference of opinion. Yes I'm on the high moral ground, think what your'e condoning. Would you be happy if someone accused you of something behind your back and then soldier turn up, dump you in a cell, electrocute you, take to your fingernails with pliers, smack you around for weeks on end.. And you were innocent?

On the topic of WHY palestinians might strap a bomb to themselves: do you ever stop to question why? Do you really think that dropping bombs and killing neighbouring civilians is going to change that attitude?

On black and white: I wasn't saying that nothing is black and white, I was merely saying (along with the shades of grey) that it isn't a case of "with us or against us". Because I'm saying that Israel is out of line DOESN'T mean I'm saying Islam is good! I think Islam is a f*cking stupid religion, and I don't want it infecting Australian society to any great extent.

CW: Wanting a higher level of moral behaviour or a more compassionate society is not a bad thing.

ZY: I agree, but not at the cost of our survival.

That you think that is the only choice is the problem I'm talking about.

Israel is hardly part of the civilised world: it's stuck in the barbaric behaviour common to the middle east and from the past. It requires massive amounts of US aid to prop up (including military), tortures and has the infection of state by religion common to less developed nations.

ZY: "The moment you hear about non-Muslims donning suicide vests and blowing themselves up in the midst of their enemies, give me a call. 'Til then, your moral equivalence ploy won't fly."

It's at the same level as dropping cluster bombs, well.. except it takes more balls when you know you're going to go with those others.
Israeli's pressing buttons and using laser guided missiles from a nice safe distance vs some guy with a bomb vest on who kills himself too.. End result is still the same, although one of 'em keeps hitting the buttons the next day to wipe out some more civilians.

ZY: It takes two to tango, bud.

Yep, it certainly does.. Continuing to tango wiping out more and more of the dancefloor isn't going to achieve anything except more hate and more body bags. Compromise, diplomacy are two important tools.

ZY:"we educate our children for love of life and peace"

So the pics of Israeli kids scribbling on bombs was achieving what exactly with the next generation? Your kids (if you have any) listening to you go one about how islam should be iradicated. How is that any different from the radical muslims who want there to be no jews in the middle east? You can stay there, but you have to convert.. I'm happy if you ban all religions equally in the region, but China's tried that and people seem to need something to believe in..

ZY:"And another thing: the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, are guilty only when G-d says they are guilty, not when the UN, the BBC or Human Rights Watch says so. Those organizations too are accountable to G-d, and He will give them retribution for their wrongs unless they change course. G-d is not the one described in the Koran, which is the work of one moonstruck human being."

Jeez.. Well where do I start with this level of religi-delusion. Firstly what you're talking about is superstition, something which irrational people seem prone to. Your religion has NO MORE validitity than "Flying Spaghetti Monsterism" (look it up for the background). Moonstruck: no more than jews, christians, railians, scientologists, mormons, hindus..

That you're taking it a step further to say that it is justification for ignoring the world community is appalling. Faith/belif in invisible beings is one thing, using it to get out of being a decent world citizen is another.

Here's a fact for you: Israel's latest trek over the border means it IS guilty of killing people. It's pathalogical for you to say "we're not guilty until god says so". You're sounding like a serial killer "I answer only to a higher power" rather than to the reality.
If you replaced "god" with anything else you'd be locked up..

Anyhow, I'll lay money with you that IF this conflict is going to resolve itself in my lifetime (let's say i've got another 60 years left?) it will be because diplomacy is used, not bombs. Well unless the whole middle east goes up in one big fireball that is.. Which outcome is the more desirable and sensible one do you think?

Chill,

I know that Israel can be brutal in the Territories, and that its response in Lebanon was devastating. But when you say that Israel chose the "aggressive" course, I wonder what other course there was: Bomb a bit less in Lebanon? Possibly. But with guerillas infiltrating and attacking or trying to attack from the territories and from Gaza, there doesn't seem to be much choice for the country. You may say there is, I'm not so sure.

Regarding two statements of yours:

"Since we're talking reasons to compare with the nazi regime: your argument that there is no choice but to defend Israel is exactly what the nazis said about the jewish threat. "They're trying to take over", "they are a threat to the german/european way of life" etc etc."

I cannot believe this. You are actually comparing the Nazi view of the Jewish threat, which was pure fantasy, to the threat that Israel faces, which is all too real. Yes, I'm sure that Begin and Shamir used Holocaust rhetoric too much and in bad taste. But there is no analogy here. It is a question of an astronomical difference in degree being a difference in kind. Or maybe you think that the Arabs today pose as little danger to Israel as the Jews did to Germany. Or that the Jews posed as much a danger to Germany then as the Arabs do now!

"Please keep your arrogant "you must be dumb cos I disagree with you" type comment about doubting my intelligence to yourself."

That wasn't arrogance you were hearing, but exasperation...No...more like disbelief. But here you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't imply you were dumb because you didn't agree with me, but because the cartoon was odious and you didn't have the sense or taste to see it. It's not that your arguments are anti-Zionist. I can handle that. It's that your arguments in that vein are daft.

After seeing your response, my impression of you is only reinforced. I'm sorry, but there do seem to be some glitches in your reasoning. This is the first time I've said someone like this (and I'm on the left myself), but you really stand out. Your language is aggressive, but your arguments are surprisingly feeble.

Let's say no more on the subject. ZY, I suggest you don't spend much time answering this guy. It's a waste of your time.

Joanne:
"I didn't imply you were dumb because you didn't agree with me, but because the cartoon was odious and you didn't have the sense or taste to see it."

Don't you realise that's *your* opinion. It is not a "fact" that it is odious, you must back up such a statement for it to be anything other than an entirely personal opinion. Objective vs subjective.
I can say that your name is odious, that doesn't suddenly make it so or make my saying it any way justified. I can certainly understand why someone might find any comparison between the nazi actions and Israeli actions, believe me I have a pretty good idea of the scale of things when I went through Poland and dropped in on that sobering reminder of what went on at the camps.. But beyond shutting down and saying "oh that's odious I'm too offended to think about it further" is there really nothing more in that cartoon for you to think about? Notice the expression on the guy's face, he's hardly happy in either of them.

But I do I happen to think that that cartoon is a rather interesting comparison of how history has changed, yet not changed and in a lot of ways a quite clever comparison. If you cannot appreciate on any level that there is a sad irony to the situation and that was what the cartoon was pointing out then I'm afraid there's not much I can do to explain that.

But that's political satire and political cartoons for you. Some people like yourself might read into things what they like and block off the possibility of anyone having a differing view..

The danish cartoons: some people looked at those and thought some were garbage, others saw a rather clever point of view. For instance: the one with the two muslim women covered up completely except for their eyes behind a muslim man brandishing a sword with his eyes blinded.. I thought that was rather clever. Other people took that as a grave offence against their religion and went out burning danish flags..

As for my arguments: we've had ZY saying he's all for Israel continuing to torture, that targetting civilian infrastructure was accidental or minimised. You start off your post saying "I know Israel can be brutal in the territories".. So Israel's hardly being a saint: they torture, kill, imprison, opress..
Sure, noone's ever said that it's the same degree as the holocaust, but you have to admit it's of the same side of the fence of immoral behaviour and if the society is based around or supportive of those practices it's really just a case of scale we're arguing about and one would *think* that given the history involved that would never even be able to look at the Israeli nation and see it torturing, imprisoning, opressing a neighbouring state's people.. That's my exasperation showing through.

As for whether a small mob of radicals with some short range, innefective missiles constitutes a clear and present threat to Israel's very existance is dubious. So much so that a full scale military engagement is warranted, destruction of civilian infrastructure, killing of many civilians.. I mean that sort of action is the real threat to Israel's existance. As in the conversation with ZY: if the nation of Israel is better than the barbarians then it shouldn't be acting in a barbaric way.

If you're serious about wanting Israel to be able to live in peace without the threat of other groups or nations wanting to take it down then it has to be a friendly neighbour and it HAS to adhere to high standards of morality. It's the same reason noone's going to listen to the US on human rights anymore, it has dug itself a hole of negative credibility that means it simply cannot tell others to behave because it fails the "do as I say, not as I do" test.
I would love nothing more than to be able to just focus on the d*ckheads lobbing missiles into Israel because Israel is a just and fair and moral government. But currently there's enough dodgy stuff it does to muddy the issue to the point that people can say "well, it reaps what it sows".

I'm sorry you're not seeing what seems logical to me, perhaps if you explain specifically what you disagree with in my reasoning..

Joanne says: ZY, I suggest you don't spend much time answering this guy. It's a waste of your time.

ZionistYoungster says: Thank you for the suggestion, but of my own free choice I wish to continue responding to him. If only for the sake of other readers, I refuse to leave criticism of Israel unanswered.

ChillWinston says: Firstly: I'm Australian, not British. Easy to spot cos any sport they invented - we beat 'em in it. ;)

ZionistYoungster replies: OK. Doesn't change my point much: you're a fine talker now, but a few Muslimissiles coming from Bali would change your tune.

CW: Actually the Israeli reason for bombing the power plant was (roughly) "to stop the captured soldiers getting moved because it would mean darkness".
Check out the Israeli diplomat to England getting questioned #1 on this page: Link...

I mean talk about garbage reason.

ZY: "Garbage reason", eh? The attacks on infrastructure (bridges, roads etc) were for preventing supplies reaching the Hizbos from Syria, as well as trying to delay the transfer of the abducted soldiers to Syria as much as possible. But the passage of time has enabled you to completely forget what war is like.

CW: Would you be happy if someone accused you of something behind your back and then soldier turn up, dump you in a cell, electrocute you, take to your fingernails with pliers, smack you around for weeks on end.. And you were innocent?

ZY: No, but then I don't belong to a group of people that is known to spawn suicide terrorists from it day after day. It's like the difference between a British Muslim (at the very best an aider of terrorism) and a British Hindu (in all probability: a fine citizen of Britain).

CW: On the topic of WHY palestinians might strap a bomb to themselves: do you ever stop to question why?

ZY: Not only do I ever stop to question why, I actually did that, for years on end, and came to an answer. But it's not the one you want to hear.

CW: Do you really think that dropping bombs and killing neighbouring civilians is going to change that attitude?

ZY: Their attitude will change when they realize terrorism doesn't pay them dividends. So far, all those land concessions on Israel's part and cultural concessions on other Western countries' part (like the new burka gown for female Muslim patients... or taking off Piglet toys from stores... or removing St. George's Cross so as not to arouse "memories of the Crusades"... and so on, ad nauseum) only convince Muslims to continue with their terrorism, because they're getting a message, loud and clear, that it pays. The only places where there is no Islamic terrorism are where the non-Muslim government suppresses Islamic impudence with an iron fist. Like China. Now, I'm not saying I support the Chinese regime (in terms of the rights of the man in the street), but I am saying Western democracy is not a suicide pact.

CW: Because I'm saying that Israel is out of line DOESN'T mean I'm saying Islam is good! I think Islam is a f*cking stupid religion, and I don't want it infecting Australian society to any great extent.

ZY: That's good! But I say your separation between Israel's actions and your sentiments against Islam infecting Australian society is unwarranted. I say Israel is confronting the same problem--Islamic infection, to use your words--as is Australia. Of course, you aren't engaged in physical warfare with the Muslims yet, but that's only because they're not numerous enough yet. When the Muslims area a minority, the jihad is only cultural and demographic; when they become the majority, things get physical. And then you find yourself becoming very, um, Israeli (oh, the horror!).

CW: Israel is hardly part of the civilised world: it's stuck in the barbaric behaviour common to the middle east and from the past.

ZY: Right.

Latest Israeli high-tech achievements

CW: It's at the same level as dropping cluster bombs

ZY: A legal weapon under international law. Not so the ball bearings in the Hizbullah katyusha rockets.

CW: except it takes more balls when you know you're going to go with those others.

ZY: Admiration for the "noble savage", for the exotic other, for the "anti-colonial resistance fighter", for those primitive Ewoks resisting Imperial stormtroopers. The bread and butter of the Left.

CW: Continuing to tango wiping out more and more of the dancefloor isn't going to achieve anything except more hate and more body bags.

ZY: Any chance of getting that message to Israel's enemies? We've been wiping the blood from our own dancefloors for over a decade.

If you can say the Palestinians are acting out of the root cause of Israeli hostilities, can you say the Israelis are acting out of the root cause of Palestinian hostilities? Why the one and not the other? Why is it Israel always has to compromise? Or the West as a whole? Let the enemy compromise for a change!

CW: So the pics of Israeli kids scribbling on bombs was achieving what exactly with the next generation?

ZY: That issue deserves more than a few words on a blog comment. I'm planning a post about it on my blog. With that clarification that what I'm going to say isn't going to do it justice, I say this: although I do not condone the girls scribbling on the artillery shells, there is a world of difference between that and the pictures of the Palestinian children. The difference is that the Israeli girls' action stems from the sin of omission, namely their parents' failure to watch over them in a war zone, while the education of the Palestinian children stems from the sin of commission, that is, willful upbringing of those children upon hatred. Again, I'm making it too brief.

CW: Your kids (if you have any) listening to you go one about how islam should be iradicated.

ZY: Some reading comprehension problem, CW? Eradication of Islam, of an ideology, not of people, and not by eradicating the people who hold it, but by educating it out of them. In contrast to:

CW: How is that any different from the radical muslims who want there to be no jews in the middle east?

ZY: They're talking about genocide--about killing the people.

CW: You can stay there, but you have to convert.

ZY: That would be the best-case scenario. Even back in the earliest days of Islam, when its founder was still alive and giving the orders (as well as receiving revelations from demons), the Jewish tribe of the Bani Koreizah was murdered to a man, their bodies dropped into a ditch ordered dug by Mohammad himself, exemplary teacher of Hitler and his Einsatzgruppen.

CW: I'm happy if you ban all religions equally in the region

ZY: No, no religion needs to be banned, only one political ideology masquerading as such (hint: begins with an I).

CW: Jeez.. Well where do I start with this level of religi-delusion. Firstly what you're talking about is superstition, something which irrational people seem prone to. Your religion has NO MORE validitity than "Flying Spaghetti Monsterism" (look it up for the background).

ZY: And you have investigated all world religions to make such a declaration? And you know there is no Creator, G-d, souls and such things... how exactly?

CW: That you're taking it a step further to say that it is justification for ignoring the world community is appalling. Faith/belif in invisible beings is one thing, using it to get out of being a decent world citizen is another.

ZY: Let me tell you something about the world community: it has no more meaning than "animal kingdom". The phrase "world community" assumes a basic sameness of human values. Such a sameness doesn't exist--not when one group of people holds it's OK to marry a cousin while another doesn't, not when one group holds it's OK to stone women for adultery and another doesn't, and not when one group has a culture of human sacrifice (Aztecs in the past, Muslims today) and another repudiates that.

This misconception of a "world community" is behind the criminal error of multiculturalism, which is rendering the West defenseless in the face of the Islamic invasion.

Nor does the "world community" even go consistently out of its way in helping the oppressed:

www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23635

CW: Here's a fact for you: Israel's latest trek over the border means it IS guilty of killing people.

ZY: What about Hizbullah's trek over the border? Or Hamas' rocket trek over the border? Guilty or not?

CW: It's pathalogical for you to say "we're not guilty until god says so".

ZY: Any ability of humans to make moral judgments, even if they are atheists, comes from G-d, from His image in which He created us. Therefore G-d's statutes form the only real verdict of morality, while humans can be very selective in their moralizing. Would you regard the UN to be humanity's supreme moral compass? The UN turned a blind eye toward the genocide in Rwanda, and I can't hear it calling the two sides in Sri Lanka to lay down their weapons and go to the negotiations table. So all this talk about being a world citizen and listening to the world community is empty. Utterly empty.

CW: Anyhow, I'll lay money with you that IF this conflict is going to resolve itself in my lifetime (let's say i've got another 60 years left?) it will be because diplomacy is used, not bombs.

ZY: Yeah, like it's worked so far. Diplomacy bred the 1947 UN Partition Plan; Muslim response: terror and military action to nip the Jewish state in the bud. Diplomacy bred the Oslo Accords; Muslim response: suicide bombings in buses in Tel-Aviv. All hail Diplomacy, that reliable bringer of Peace For Our Time!

CW: Well unless the whole middle east goes up in one big fireball that is.. Which outcome is the more desirable and sensible one do you think?

ZY: I don't want war. But the decision is not in our hands. And by "our" I'm referring to Israel, to the West, to the whole non-Muslim world. That's the key to understanding it all: we're under attack not out of any "legitimate grievance" on the enemy's part, but out of their illegitimate desire that the whole world be subjected to their political system, to their darkness. Just wake up.

Chill, I find you unconvincing, some truth with some weirdness thrown in. And you don't think much of my views, either, which is your prerogative. Let's just agree to disagree, as the cliche goes. This thread is, I hope, at an end.

Chill, I find you unconvincing, some truth with some weirdness thrown in. And you don't think much of my views, either, which is your prerogative. Let's just agree to disagree, as the cliche goes. This thread is, I hope, at an end.

Joanne says: ZY, I suggest you don't spend much time answering this guy. It's a waste of your time.

ZionistYoungster says: Thank you for the suggestion, but of my own free choice I wish to continue responding to him. If only for the sake of other readers, I refuse to leave criticism of Israel unanswered.

ChillWinston says: Firstly: I'm Australian, not British. Easy to spot cos any sport they invented - we beat 'em in it. ;)

ZionistYoungster replies: OK. Doesn't change my point much: you're a fine talker now, but a few Muslimissiles coming from Bali would change your tune.

CW: Actually the Israeli reason for bombing the power plant was (roughly) "to stop the captured soldiers getting moved because it would mean darkness".
Check out the Israeli diplomat to England getting questioned #1 on this page: Link...

I mean talk about garbage reason.

ZY: "Garbage reason", eh? The attacks on infrastructure (bridges, roads etc) were for preventing supplies reaching the Hizbos from Syria, as well as trying to delay the transfer of the abducted soldiers to Syria as much as possible. But the passage of time has enabled you to completely forget what war is like.

CW: Would you be happy if someone accused you of something behind your back and then soldier turn up, dump you in a cell, electrocute you, take to your fingernails with pliers, smack you around for weeks on end.. And you were innocent?

ZY: No, but then I don't belong to a group of people that is known to spawn suicide terrorists from it day after day. It's like the difference between a British Muslim (at the very best an aider of terrorism) and a British Hindu (in all probability: a fine citizen of Britain).

CW: On the topic of WHY palestinians might strap a bomb to themselves: do you ever stop to question why?

ZY: Not only do I ever stop to question why, I actually did that, for years on end, and came to an answer. But it's not the one you want to hear.

CW: Do you really think that dropping bombs and killing neighbouring civilians is going to change that attitude?

ZY: Their attitude will change when they realize terrorism doesn't pay them dividends. So far, all those land concessions on Israel's part and cultural concessions on other Western countries' part (like the new burka gown for female Muslim patients... or taking off Piglet toys from stores... or removing St. George's Cross so as not to arouse "memories of the Crusades"... and so on, ad nauseum) only convince Muslims to continue with their terrorism, because they're getting a message, loud and clear, that it pays. The only places where there is no Islamic terrorism are where the non-Muslim government suppresses Islamic impudence with an iron fist. Like China. Now, I'm not saying I support the Chinese regime (in terms of the rights of the man in the street), but I am saying Western democracy is not a suicide pact.

CW: Because I'm saying that Israel is out of line DOESN'T mean I'm saying Islam is good! I think Islam is a f*cking stupid religion, and I don't want it infecting Australian society to any great extent.

ZY: That's good! But I say your separation between Israel's actions and your sentiments against Islam infecting Australian society is unwarranted. I say Israel is confronting the same problem--Islamic infection, to use your words--as is Australia. Of course, you aren't engaged in physical warfare with the Muslims yet, but that's only because they're not numerous enough yet. When the Muslims area a minority, the jihad is only cultural and demographic; when they become the majority, things get physical. And then you find yourself becoming very, um, Israeli (oh, the horror!).

CW: Israel is hardly part of the civilised world: it's stuck in the barbaric behaviour common to the middle east and from the past.

ZY: Right.

Latest Israeli high-tech achievements

CW: It's at the same level as dropping cluster bombs

ZY: A legal weapon under international law. Not so the ball bearings in the Hizbullah katyusha rockets.

CW: except it takes more balls when you know you're going to go with those others.

ZY: Admiration for the "noble savage", for the exotic other, for the "anti-colonial resistance fighter", for those primitive Ewoks resisting Imperial stormtroopers. The bread and butter of the Left.

CW: Continuing to tango wiping out more and more of the dancefloor isn't going to achieve anything except more hate and more body bags.

ZY: Any chance of getting that message to Israel's enemies? We've been wiping the blood from our own dancefloors for over a decade.

If you can say the Palestinians are acting out of the root cause of Israeli hostilities, can you say the Israelis are acting out of the root cause of Palestinian hostilities? Why the one and not the other? Why is it Israel always has to compromise? Or the West as a whole? Let the enemy compromise for a change!

CW: So the pics of Israeli kids scribbling on bombs was achieving what exactly with the next generation?

ZY: That issue deserves more than a few words on a blog comment. I'm planning a post about it on my blog. With that clarification that what I'm going to say isn't going to do it justice, I say this: although I do not condone the girls scribbling on the artillery shells, there is a world of difference between that and the pictures of the Palestinian children. The difference is that the Israeli girls' action stems from the sin of omission, namely their parents' failure to watch over them in a war zone, while the education of the Palestinian children stems from the sin of commission, that is, willful upbringing of those children upon hatred. Again, I'm making it too brief.

CW: Your kids (if you have any) listening to you go one about how islam should be iradicated.

ZY: Some reading comprehension problem, CW? Eradication of Islam, of an ideology, not of people, and not by eradicating the people who hold it, but by educating it out of them. In contrast to:

CW: How is that any different from the radical muslims who want there to be no jews in the middle east?

ZY: They're talking about genocide--about killing the people.

CW: You can stay there, but you have to convert.

ZY: That would be the best-case scenario. Even back in the earliest days of Islam, when its founder was still alive and giving the orders (as well as receiving revelations from demons), the Jewish tribe of the Bani Koreizah was murdered to a man, their bodies dropped into a ditch ordered dug by Mohammad himself, exemplary teacher of Hitler and his Einsatzgruppen.

CW: I'm happy if you ban all religions equally in the region

ZY: No, no religion needs to be banned, only one political ideology masquerading as such (hint: begins with an I).

CW: Jeez.. Well where do I start with this level of religi-delusion. Firstly what you're talking about is superstition, something which irrational people seem prone to. Your religion has NO MORE validitity than "Flying Spaghetti Monsterism" (look it up for the background).

ZY: And you have investigated all world religions to make such a declaration? And you know there is no Creator, G-d, souls and such things... how exactly?

CW: That you're taking it a step further to say that it is justification for ignoring the world community is appalling. Faith/belif in invisible beings is one thing, using it to get out of being a decent world citizen is another.

ZY: Let me tell you something about the world community: it has no more meaning than "animal kingdom". The phrase "world community" assumes a basic sameness of human values. Such a sameness doesn't exist--not when one group of people holds it's OK to marry a cousin while another doesn't, not when one group holds it's OK to stone women for adultery and another doesn't, and not when one group has a culture of human sacrifice (Aztecs in the past, Muslims today) and another repudiates that.

This misconception of a "world community" is behind the criminal error of multiculturalism, which is rendering the West defenseless in the face of the Islamic invasion.

Nor does the "world community" even go consistently out of its way in helping the oppressed:

www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23635

CW: Here's a fact for you: Israel's latest trek over the border means it IS guilty of killing people.

ZY: What about Hizbullah's trek over the border? Or Hamas' rocket trek over the border? Guilty or not?

CW: It's pathalogical for you to say "we're not guilty until god says so".

ZY: Any ability of humans to make moral judgments, even if they are atheists, comes from G-d, from His image in which He created us. Therefore G-d's statutes form the only real verdict of morality, while humans can be very selective in their moralizing. Would you regard the UN to be humanity's supreme moral compass? The UN turned a blind eye toward the genocide in Rwanda, and I can't hear it calling the two sides in Sri Lanka to lay down their weapons and go to the negotiations table. So all this talk about being a world citizen and listening to the world community is empty. Utterly empty.

CW: Anyhow, I'll lay money with you that IF this conflict is going to resolve itself in my lifetime (let's say i've got another 60 years left?) it will be because diplomacy is used, not bombs.

ZY: Yeah, like it's worked so far. Diplomacy bred the 1947 UN Partition Plan; Muslim response: terror and military action to nip the Jewish state in the bud. Diplomacy bred the Oslo Accords; Muslim response: suicide bombings in buses in Tel-Aviv. All hail Diplomacy, that reliable bringer of Peace For Our Time!

CW: Well unless the whole middle east goes up in one big fireball that is.. Which outcome is the more desirable and sensible one do you think?

ZY: I don't want war. But the decision is not in our hands. And by "our" I'm referring to Israel, to the West, to the whole non-Muslim world. That's the key to understanding it all: we're under attack not out of any "legitimate grievance" on the enemy's part, but out of their illegitimate desire that the whole world be subjected to their political system, to their darkness. Just wake up.