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Someone should do a study on Jewish attitudes towards "the other." Ive heard some interesting things about their collaboration with the Muslims in the ill treatment of the Iberian Penninsula's Christians. Part of the reason for the famous and often trumpeted expulsion as well as the Iquisition.
Eddie, that's not the half of it - this link is must-reading about the history of Jews in Spain.
Particularly after the Visigoths converted to Catholicism in 587, persecution of Jews became aggressive and included forced baptisms, theft of children, beatings and mass expulsions:
n 633, the Fourth Council of Toledo, while taking a stance in opposition to compulsory baptism, convened to address the problem of crypto-Judaism. It was decided that, if a professed Christian were determined to be a practicing Jew, his or her children were to be taken away to be raised in monasteries or trusted Christian households (Assis, p. 10). The council further directed that all who had reverted to Judaism during the reign of Swintila had to return to Christianity (Katz, p. 13). The trend toward intolerance continued with the ascent of Chintila (636-639). He directed the Sixth Council of Toledo to order that only Catholics could remain in the kingdom, and taking an unusual step further, Chintila excommunicated "in advance" any of his successors who did not act in accordance with his anti-Jewish edicts. Again, many converted while others chose exile (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
And yet the "problem" continued. The Eighth Council of Toledo in 653 again tackled the issue of Jews within the realm. Further measures at this time included the forbidding of all Jewish rites (including circumcision and the observation of the Shabbat), and all converted Jews had to promise to put to death, either by burning or by stoning, any of their brethren known to have relapsed to Judaism. The Council was aware that prior efforts had been frustrated by lack of compliance among authorities on the local level: therefore, anyone — including nobles and clergy — found to have aided Jews in the practice of Judaism were to be punished by seizure of one quarter of their property and excommunication (Katz, p. 16).
These efforts again proved unsuccessful. The Jewish population remained sufficiently sizable as to prompt Wamba (672-680) to issue limited expulsion orders against them, and the reign of Erwig (680-687) also seemed vexed by the issue. The 12th Council of Toledo again called for forced baptism, and, for those who disobeyed, seizure of property, corporal punishment, exile, and slavery. Jewish children over seven years of age were taken from their parents and similarly dealt with in 694. Erwig also took measures to ensure that Catholic sympathizers would not be inclined to aid Jews in their efforts to subvert the council's rulings. Heavy fines awaited any nobles who acted in favor of the Jews, and members of the clergy who were remiss in enforcement were subject to a number of punishments (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
snip
Now - what was that about Jews and "the other"?
It's particularly sickening to see Soviet-style "turnspeak" invoked by a white supremacist isn't it.
I was refering to a Portuguese fellow I was conversing with at Gates of Vienna, Afonso Henriques. Who seems very informed about his peninsula's history. Far more than any of us commenting here, I would think.
What we can see I think is that the Jews welcomed the better treatment under the Muslims, with the Christians at the bottom of the heap. But then Christians regained power, and they didnt like being ill treated themselves.
The attempt to villify one group on the Iberian Penninsula isnt a fair reading of history. Neither is more worthy of villianizing.
I understand that as Jews, you are predisposed to a certain POV.
Yes, yes, yes...I've heard stuff like that 1000 times. The Jews were Communists so they deserved the hatred of the Russians, Ukranians and the Germans, etc... the Jews were capitalists so they deserved the animosity of the Poles, the Jews X so they deserved Y. There are a million of those supposed justifications. Nothing new. Funny thing, the worst always happens when the Jews are powerless. I know you are fascinated with these matters, but you are not going to get an engagement on these lines in any serious manner in the comments on this blog. You will always come off sounding like a Stormfront refugee. So why persist?
It seems to me that something like the Moynihan formulation is going on with regards to Europeans. The Moynihan formulation if I remember correctly is that democracies being open with information readily available are often the objects of criticism, where dictatorships and totalitarian regimes with less information available in the non free and open society, are less criticized.
The Europeans kept large numbers of records of there experiences and activities....so they become more heavily criticized than other peoples and cultures, many of whom were illiterate or semi literate savages on 4 continents. These peoples doings are less known, so they only come into view via the records of the Europeans, which came to control much of the globe. Now these savages and simple tribal natives, become the victims to be empathized with (which is especially easy as they have no or little history to reveal there true selves). Even European observations of these people copiously documented, is dismissed as Orientalist in nature, sullied by the bigotry of the white Euro Christian.
"I found the article posted as having elements of of anti-Europeanism."
It's about British anti-Semitism, about a book written by a fairly establishment Brit. What on earth are you talking about? Europe has a history of anti-Semitism. Face it.
“I don’t want to just be about negating somebody else,” Mr. McGowan, 47, said in a recent interview at his current home in suburban Atlanta. “And there are a lot of atheists who don’t want to be always fighting the culture wars. We need a positive expression of our values and a sense of community.”
Im all about that. But I also want to defend against the onslaught of villification of Euro Christian peoples and culture. Challenge it and make it uncomfortable and not without a public or social price, for other groups or individuals who do it.
"What if we had a book called 850 years of Jewish disloyalty?
Would anti-Semitism radar be pinging?"
Yeah. It would. It would also be a completely different thing.
"I also want to defend against the onslaught of villification of Euro Christian peoples and culture. Challenge it and make it uncomfortable and not without a public or social price, for other groups or individuals who do it."
You're failing. You're mixing seeking honesty, perspective and fairness with pure revisionism (trying to apologize away Europe's history with the Jews is destined in advance to be a fairly pathetic effort) in your historical analysis. I notice you at least didn't say "White" this time.
It wouldnt be a different thing at all. It would be a scholarly look at Jewish disloyalty to European tribes and Christian peoples. No lies, and no revisions, copiously documented.
But the gist of it would be anti Semitic in nature. Just as 850 years of European Anti Semitism is without a doubt anti European, no matter the truth of it, or how copiously it is documented.
Ill never give up. The more voices that are raised the more mainstream it becomes, and the more people are unafraid to speak out. Sure Ill make a million mistakes and misspeaks, and so will a lot of other people, but abandoning this to the worst sort of Klansman or Neo Nazi is a big mistake in my book. If they are the only ones speaking out, then there are 2 possibilites. Either they become the defacto empowered groups, as in some of Europe is happening currently, which will be a disaster for all minority groups.... or others speak up and create a movement based on possitive values and cultural markers and confronting hatred and ill treatment aimed at our groups.
I think you should encourage this movement. A new cultural confidence of European peoples is the only thing that is going to save Europe from becoming Judenrein, Islamized. And may just save Israel.
The key is, if the oposition to this positive movement is too great, and they arent embraced in the multicultural spirit. Then the movement may then turn militant, as we say the Civil Rights Movement quickly turn into the Black Power Militant Movement in the 60s and early 70s.
Europeans needed to allow space for minorities, and now minorities need to allow space for Europeans, as well. Continuing to hold historical grudges in perpetuity and for political gain will not end well.
Jesus. Europe practically IS judenrein or hadn't you noticed.
How many Jews total are there in Europe? It can't be much more than a million at most even including Russia and the Ukraine.
Total population Europe:
731,000,000
If you go to Jewish Virtual Library and add up the numbers by country even including Russia and the Ukraine you can get a rough idea.
Jewish populations total a few hundred thousand AT MOST in any any one country and substantially less than that in almost all European states, down to relative handfuls of people who by the way need 24/7 security at their schools and other institutions and who must be vigilant against attack.
Graveyards and Holocaust memorials are frequently vandalized and openly religious Jews are vulnerable to assault. Threats against Jews are a serious problem and El Al planes carry missile avoidance technology.
Note the Muslims didn't bring antisemitism to Europe did they nor did they create animus against Jews although some definitely express it - what's saddest of all is that European antisemitic memes have traveled to the Middle East. The "Protocols" and the blood libel are not Muslim inventions, nor is Nazism.
Both however have become features of the wars against Israel and have looped back into the West where they never really died out and where excuse-makers try to avoid dealing with what's essentially a disease of Western culture, and where some have actively promoted animus against Israel.
In some of these cases the pro-Palestinian movement is outright antisemitic.
In Britain this is quite obvious. Indeed some British boycott-Israel leaders have been caught linking to neonazi websites and repeating odious blood libels.
This isn't an accident but rather a reflection of bias dating back centuries, which is the topic of the post after all, not oh poor little European victims. Period.
Centuries of abuse against Jews long predated the rebirth of Israel and Middle Eastern terror against Jews and also it's important to recognize the role of European antisemitism in giving a platform for extremism and even open support for groups who've terrorized Israelis and other Jews around the world, including Hamas, the PLO and Hezbollah.
Now when it comes to European Muslims, outside the Balkans where there are several essentially Muslim countries, and France where Muslims are about 10% of the population, the Muslim population vis a vis "white Euro Christians" is quite low.
In short this business about relative handfuls of people having to "make room" for white guys is ridiculous.
So is this argument attempting to "prove" that antisemitism is the Jews' fault, it's the fault of Jewish people that we've been systematically attacked, forcibly converted, robbed, extorted, bullied, expelled and finally damn near annihilated en masse during WWII.
The attempt to make excuses for this is pathetic. The attempt to claim victim status is even sorrier and so is the attempt to avoid documented history.
Sophia loves criticizing and villifying Euros. I dont think she will ever tire of it.
But there is nothing anti Europic about her never ending thirst for criticiqing Euros and enumerating their crimes, perceived or real, against "the Other."
"It wouldnt be a different thing at all. It would be a scholarly look at Jewish disloyalty to European tribes and Christian peoples. No lies, and no revisions, copiously documented."
There's so much wrong with that that I'd have to be Sophia to want to take the time to untangle it and we're getting to that "I'm tired of going around in circles with you" point. I didn't start this site to constantly hash these issues. And please try to make it one comment instead of three (or 4 or 5) in a row which clogs up the Recent Comments list.
"It" should be the subject of your PhD thesis, not the comments on this blog.
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Someone should do a study on Jewish attitudes towards "the other." Ive heard some interesting things about their collaboration with the Muslims in the ill treatment of the Iberian Penninsula's Christians. Part of the reason for the famous and often trumpeted expulsion as well as the Iquisition.
"Ive heard some interesting things about their collaboration with the Muslims in the ill treatment of the Iberian Penninsula's Christians."
stormfront, david puke, presstv, guardian, independent, mcb?
And what did the iberian penninsula "white euros" do to Latin and South America Native populations?
Eddie, that's not the half of it - this link is must-reading about the history of Jews in Spain.
Particularly after the Visigoths converted to Catholicism in 587, persecution of Jews became aggressive and included forced baptisms, theft of children, beatings and mass expulsions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain
Here's a snip:
n 633, the Fourth Council of Toledo, while taking a stance in opposition to compulsory baptism, convened to address the problem of crypto-Judaism. It was decided that, if a professed Christian were determined to be a practicing Jew, his or her children were to be taken away to be raised in monasteries or trusted Christian households (Assis, p. 10). The council further directed that all who had reverted to Judaism during the reign of Swintila had to return to Christianity (Katz, p. 13). The trend toward intolerance continued with the ascent of Chintila (636-639). He directed the Sixth Council of Toledo to order that only Catholics could remain in the kingdom, and taking an unusual step further, Chintila excommunicated "in advance" any of his successors who did not act in accordance with his anti-Jewish edicts. Again, many converted while others chose exile (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
And yet the "problem" continued. The Eighth Council of Toledo in 653 again tackled the issue of Jews within the realm. Further measures at this time included the forbidding of all Jewish rites (including circumcision and the observation of the Shabbat), and all converted Jews had to promise to put to death, either by burning or by stoning, any of their brethren known to have relapsed to Judaism. The Council was aware that prior efforts had been frustrated by lack of compliance among authorities on the local level: therefore, anyone — including nobles and clergy — found to have aided Jews in the practice of Judaism were to be punished by seizure of one quarter of their property and excommunication (Katz, p. 16).
These efforts again proved unsuccessful. The Jewish population remained sufficiently sizable as to prompt Wamba (672-680) to issue limited expulsion orders against them, and the reign of Erwig (680-687) also seemed vexed by the issue. The 12th Council of Toledo again called for forced baptism, and, for those who disobeyed, seizure of property, corporal punishment, exile, and slavery. Jewish children over seven years of age were taken from their parents and similarly dealt with in 694. Erwig also took measures to ensure that Catholic sympathizers would not be inclined to aid Jews in their efforts to subvert the council's rulings. Heavy fines awaited any nobles who acted in favor of the Jews, and members of the clergy who were remiss in enforcement were subject to a number of punishments (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
snip
Now - what was that about Jews and "the other"?
It's particularly sickening to see Soviet-style "turnspeak" invoked by a white supremacist isn't it.
Ev, they have that discussion on Stormfront every day. You should take that issue there.
Sorry Sol.
I was refering to a Portuguese fellow I was conversing with at Gates of Vienna, Afonso Henriques. Who seems very informed about his peninsula's history. Far more than any of us commenting here, I would think.
What we can see I think is that the Jews welcomed the better treatment under the Muslims, with the Christians at the bottom of the heap. But then Christians regained power, and they didnt like being ill treated themselves.
The attempt to villify one group on the Iberian Penninsula isnt a fair reading of history. Neither is more worthy of villianizing.
I understand that as Jews, you are predisposed to a certain POV.
Yes, yes, yes...I've heard stuff like that 1000 times. The Jews were Communists so they deserved the hatred of the Russians, Ukranians and the Germans, etc... the Jews were capitalists so they deserved the animosity of the Poles, the Jews X so they deserved Y. There are a million of those supposed justifications. Nothing new. Funny thing, the worst always happens when the Jews are powerless. I know you are fascinated with these matters, but you are not going to get an engagement on these lines in any serious manner in the comments on this blog. You will always come off sounding like a Stormfront refugee. So why persist?
I found the article posted as having elements of of anti-Europeanism.
EVil, europe doesn't want Jews, now europe has Muslims. Millions and millions of Muslims.
Looks like Muslims are reversing the 1492 expulsion.
The Second Dark Ages is descending on europe.
P.S. SCREW europe (except for the Czech Republic and Denmark and Italy).
It seems to me that something like the Moynihan formulation is going on with regards to Europeans. The Moynihan formulation if I remember correctly is that democracies being open with information readily available are often the objects of criticism, where dictatorships and totalitarian regimes with less information available in the non free and open society, are less criticized.
The Europeans kept large numbers of records of there experiences and activities....so they become more heavily criticized than other peoples and cultures, many of whom were illiterate or semi literate savages on 4 continents. These peoples doings are less known, so they only come into view via the records of the Europeans, which came to control much of the globe. Now these savages and simple tribal natives, become the victims to be empathized with (which is especially easy as they have no or little history to reveal there true selves). Even European observations of these people copiously documented, is dismissed as Orientalist in nature, sullied by the bigotry of the white Euro Christian.
Hope that makes some sense.
"I found the article posted as having elements of of anti-Europeanism."
It's about British anti-Semitism, about a book written by a fairly establishment Brit. What on earth are you talking about? Europe has a history of anti-Semitism. Face it.
What if we had a book called 850 years of Jewish disloyalty?
Would anti-Semitism radar be pinging?
I was reading this article today about Atheist emulating Christian charity.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/us/03religion.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
“I don’t want to just be about negating somebody else,” Mr. McGowan, 47, said in a recent interview at his current home in suburban Atlanta. “And there are a lot of atheists who don’t want to be always fighting the culture wars. We need a positive expression of our values and a sense of community.”
Im all about that. But I also want to defend against the onslaught of villification of Euro Christian peoples and culture. Challenge it and make it uncomfortable and not without a public or social price, for other groups or individuals who do it.
"What if we had a book called 850 years of Jewish disloyalty?
Would anti-Semitism radar be pinging?"
Yeah. It would. It would also be a completely different thing.
"I also want to defend against the onslaught of villification of Euro Christian peoples and culture. Challenge it and make it uncomfortable and not without a public or social price, for other groups or individuals who do it."
You're failing. You're mixing seeking honesty, perspective and fairness with pure revisionism (trying to apologize away Europe's history with the Jews is destined in advance to be a fairly pathetic effort) in your historical analysis. I notice you at least didn't say "White" this time.
It wouldnt be a different thing at all. It would be a scholarly look at Jewish disloyalty to European tribes and Christian peoples. No lies, and no revisions, copiously documented.
But the gist of it would be anti Semitic in nature. Just as 850 years of European Anti Semitism is without a doubt anti European, no matter the truth of it, or how copiously it is documented.
Ill never give up. The more voices that are raised the more mainstream it becomes, and the more people are unafraid to speak out. Sure Ill make a million mistakes and misspeaks, and so will a lot of other people, but abandoning this to the worst sort of Klansman or Neo Nazi is a big mistake in my book. If they are the only ones speaking out, then there are 2 possibilites. Either they become the defacto empowered groups, as in some of Europe is happening currently, which will be a disaster for all minority groups.... or others speak up and create a movement based on possitive values and cultural markers and confronting hatred and ill treatment aimed at our groups.
I think you should encourage this movement. A new cultural confidence of European peoples is the only thing that is going to save Europe from becoming Judenrein, Islamized. And may just save Israel.
White is beautiful, no matter what anybody says.
The key is, if the oposition to this positive movement is too great, and they arent embraced in the multicultural spirit. Then the movement may then turn militant, as we say the Civil Rights Movement quickly turn into the Black Power Militant Movement in the 60s and early 70s.
Europeans needed to allow space for minorities, and now minorities need to allow space for Europeans, as well. Continuing to hold historical grudges in perpetuity and for political gain will not end well.
Jesus. Europe practically IS judenrein or hadn't you noticed.
How many Jews total are there in Europe? It can't be much more than a million at most even including Russia and the Ukraine.
Total population Europe:
731,000,000
If you go to Jewish Virtual Library and add up the numbers by country even including Russia and the Ukraine you can get a rough idea.
Jewish populations total a few hundred thousand AT MOST in any any one country and substantially less than that in almost all European states, down to relative handfuls of people who by the way need 24/7 security at their schools and other institutions and who must be vigilant against attack.
Graveyards and Holocaust memorials are frequently vandalized and openly religious Jews are vulnerable to assault. Threats against Jews are a serious problem and El Al planes carry missile avoidance technology.
Note the Muslims didn't bring antisemitism to Europe did they nor did they create animus against Jews although some definitely express it - what's saddest of all is that European antisemitic memes have traveled to the Middle East. The "Protocols" and the blood libel are not Muslim inventions, nor is Nazism.
Both however have become features of the wars against Israel and have looped back into the West where they never really died out and where excuse-makers try to avoid dealing with what's essentially a disease of Western culture, and where some have actively promoted animus against Israel.
In some of these cases the pro-Palestinian movement is outright antisemitic.
In Britain this is quite obvious. Indeed some British boycott-Israel leaders have been caught linking to neonazi websites and repeating odious blood libels.
This isn't an accident but rather a reflection of bias dating back centuries, which is the topic of the post after all, not oh poor little European victims. Period.
Centuries of abuse against Jews long predated the rebirth of Israel and Middle Eastern terror against Jews and also it's important to recognize the role of European antisemitism in giving a platform for extremism and even open support for groups who've terrorized Israelis and other Jews around the world, including Hamas, the PLO and Hezbollah.
Now when it comes to European Muslims, outside the Balkans where there are several essentially Muslim countries, and France where Muslims are about 10% of the population, the Muslim population vis a vis "white Euro Christians" is quite low.
In short this business about relative handfuls of people having to "make room" for white guys is ridiculous.
So is this argument attempting to "prove" that antisemitism is the Jews' fault, it's the fault of Jewish people that we've been systematically attacked, forcibly converted, robbed, extorted, bullied, expelled and finally damn near annihilated en masse during WWII.
The attempt to make excuses for this is pathetic. The attempt to claim victim status is even sorrier and so is the attempt to avoid documented history.
Sophia loves criticizing and villifying Euros. I dont think she will ever tire of it.
But there is nothing anti Europic about her never ending thirst for criticiqing Euros and enumerating their crimes, perceived or real, against "the Other."
"It wouldnt be a different thing at all. It would be a scholarly look at Jewish disloyalty to European tribes and Christian peoples. No lies, and no revisions, copiously documented."
There's so much wrong with that that I'd have to be Sophia to want to take the time to untangle it and we're getting to that "I'm tired of going around in circles with you" point. I didn't start this site to constantly hash these issues. And please try to make it one comment instead of three (or 4 or 5) in a row which clogs up the Recent Comments list.
"It" should be the subject of your PhD thesis, not the comments on this blog.